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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 17
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 27th Mar 18, 5:23 PM
    • 854 Posts
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    ASavvyBuyer
    Found this guide when looking for "official" information concerning Solar PV & Battery Storage.

    https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/nsc/Documents%20Library/NSC%20Publications/88031-BRE_Solar-Consumer-Guide-A4-12pp.pdf

    It is from 2016, so could do with updating, but even so, provides a fair bit of info.
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers. Inst Aug 2015.
    + REUK Diverter & Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump
    • ard123en
    • By ard123en 4th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • 264 Posts
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    ard123en
    just had a message from a company called Moiaxa selling their 3kWh solutions its over £3k !!!!!

    more than £1k for kWh cant imagine many takers at that price
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 4th Apr 18, 12:08 PM
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    NigeWick
    just had a message from a company called Moiaxa selling their 3kWh solutions its over £3k !!!!!

    more than £1k for kWh cant imagine many takers at that price
    Originally posted by ard123en
    Neither can I.

    I get my TP2 in two or three weeks and that 13.5kWh will work out at about £500 per kWh installed.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Apr 18, 4:52 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I've been wanting to post a mention of Sonnen Batteries for some time, but can't find any costs or info, so just to say that this company is expanding fast and supplying (so they claim) high quality batts.

    They are good for 10+yrs and 10,000 cycles, but are apparently quite expensive, so it was just a mention to file them away in memory, and post a general link just for reference.

    Sonnen Batts.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Apr 18, 5:38 PM
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    Martyn1981
    More a side issue, but this might help with the rollout of battery storage, is that the commercial side is now considering storage as part of their efficiency drives.

    Battery storage on C&I radar

    Battery storage is of growing interest to commercial and industrial (C&I) entities, but the wider energy efficiency sector has seen Brexit and other policy woes send confidence to new lows.

    Those were the findings from the most recent Energy Efficiency Trends survey, conducted quarterly by EEVS Insight and Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

    Those results, for Q4 2017, included battery storage technologies for the first time and concluded that 10% of commercial and industrial enterprises surveyed including them in energy efficiency projects commissioned within the three month period ended 31 December 2017.

    Those survey results would appear to substantiate growing confidence within the UK’s renewables and storage industries that the C&I sector has developed an appetite for battery storage. Sentiment expressed at both Solar Media’s Energy Storage Summit in February and last month’s Energy Storage Europe show in Dusseldorf, compiled by sister publication Energy-Storage.News, was that the C&I sector was the one to watch in 2018.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Exiled Tyke
    • By Exiled Tyke 15th Apr 18, 10:35 AM
    • 267 Posts
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    Exiled Tyke
    I know I'm out of my depth here, so others can correct me if I'm wrong. According to this article:

    http://www.alphr.com/tesla/1003563/tesla-powerwall-2-uk-price-specs-release-date

    A 14Kwh Powerwall2 now costs around £7k to install. If I set a cut off price of 10ppKwh (i.e. I'll buy if the price of stored leccy is less than this price) then payback occurs at 5000 cycles. Now this is beginning to look feasible.

    But I have a further concern. IF I assume that I can run one complete cycle a day - to get me from PV production hours through the evening, and I also assume that there are an average of 200 days a year that this is achievable with reasonable production levels. Then the payback period I reckon is 25 years. Which now looks like the systems will never really cover it's costs. The only way forward is to be able to buy off peak leccy during the day and sell it back during the evening - but would it even be able to discharge to grid at an adequate rate while I have my oven, kettle and possibly ASHP running?
    Install 28th Nov 15, 3.3kW, (11x300LG), SolarEdge, SW. W Yorks.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 15th Apr 18, 10:59 AM
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    orrery
    I've not seen an analysis that makes it pay yet. It will start to work when renewables drive the electricity prices down towards zero or negative, and the utilities start to provide serious 'time of day' tariffs.

    At this point, the utilities are likely to provide the batteries for low or no cost provided they have access to the power.

    The cost of the batteries is also on a downward curve, but at the moment electric car deliveries appear to be extending, presumably because of battery supply shortages - not the sort of conditions that will lead to cheaper home batteries in the short term.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 12:06 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I agree, the prices are too high at the moment, and with the chance of them falling soon, any leccy savings will be outweighed by lost batt price savings.

    As the market for renting the storage from battery for grid support grows that may well make it viable when household use just isn't enough.

    I also worked out that for 6 months of the year, the unused amount of batt capacity would be enough to support an EV driven 8,000 miles pa, so 4,000 miles during the better months, and 1,000kWh's. So that's another potential bonus, and now I'm enjoying the heat pump at home, a batt would help to smooth out demand and supply issues, and also allow for more evening heating when the sun has set.

    So, the future for batts could be very rosey if I (and you) can make better use of it through multiple roles.

    Good in theory, but need to see how things progress.


    Edit -BTW, there's a small error in the article, the giant Aussie batt farm used Powerpack 2's, not Powerwall 2's. Not really important, but just to note there are small(ish) domestic Powerwalls (13.5kWh/5kW), and huge commercial Powerpacks (210kWh/50kW):

    After a huge 100-megawatt battery array, made of dozens of Powerwall 2s connected together, was switched on alongside the Neoen Hornsdale windfarm near Jamestown recently, a follow-up project was announced for Adelaide in April.
    and to support what orrery has said about battery shortages, the Hornsdale Powerpacks used Samsung batts, not Panasonics as Tesla simply disn't have enough spare (thanks partly to humanitarian work/donations for Puerto Rico).
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 15-04-2018 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 15th Apr 18, 1:49 PM
    • 4,260 Posts
    • 5,656 Thanks
    zeupater
    I know I'm out of my depth here, so others can correct me if I'm wrong. According to this article:

    http://www.alphr.com/tesla/1003563/tesla-powerwall-2-uk-price-specs-release-date

    A 14Kwh Powerwall2 now costs around £7k to install. If I set a cut off price of 10ppKwh (i.e. I'll buy if the price of stored leccy is less than this price) then payback occurs at 5000 cycles. Now this is beginning to look feasible.

    But I have a further concern. IF I assume that I can run one complete cycle a day - to get me from PV production hours through the evening, and I also assume that there are an average of 200 days a year that this is achievable with reasonable production levels. Then the payback period I reckon is 25 years. Which now looks like the systems will never really cover it's costs. The only way forward is to be able to buy off peak leccy during the day and sell it back during the evening - but would it even be able to discharge to grid at an adequate rate while I have my oven, kettle and possibly ASHP running?
    Originally posted by Exiled Tyke
    Hi

    I expect the home battery system market to remain very slow until fully installed prices fall below £150/kWh and growth to accelerate quickly as prices approach £100/kWh.

    The Tesla Powerwall2 seems to provide the best cost/capacity offering at the moment at ~£450/kWh but that is skewed by an entry-level capacity which is likely far too large for many UK homes ... effectively, if you're paying £450/kWh capacity because it offers the best value but only ever use less than 50% of what's available, you're really paying north of £1000/kWh making the system far less attractive .... there was an article last year covering this issue mentioned in this earlier post ...
    Hi All

    Different but interesting analysis of Tesla's decision to seriously upsize the storage capacity for their Powerwall domestic battery.

    Tesla Powerwall 2 - Business brilliance or a concept in need of a reality check ?

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I do note that since the original Powerwall announcements there has been promise of falling prices, but home battery prices from various manufacturers seem to have either remained constant or, in some cases, even increased despite a consistent global reduction in rechargeable cell supply costs ... it would seem that the push for electrification of the automotive sector & high profile (/high value) grid-scale installations has diverted attention from the domestic sector for the moment ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 5:20 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hi

    I do note that since the original Powerwall announcements there has been promise of falling prices, but home battery prices from various manufacturers seem to have either remained constant or, in some cases, even increased despite a consistent global reduction in rechargeable cell supply costs ... it would seem that the push for electrification of the automotive sector & high profile (/high value) grid-scale installations has diverted attention from the domestic sector for the moment ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Yep. Good news though is that if there's a market, someone will build out the capacity to meet it, and with both Tesla and Sonnen planning to install 10's of thousands of domestic batts in Australia, many as virtual 'giant distribution side batts', then we could see a rollout of more factories ...... but again, EV's are accelerating (s'cuse the pun) ever faster too. Great news, and fun to watch, but might mean we don't get our 'cheap' batts till well after 2020.

    I'm still thinking that there could be a PWII price drop announcement any day, perhaps 20%, but at the same time, why would they if demand is outstripping supply. So frustrating.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 15th Apr 18, 5:37 PM
    • 569 Posts
    • 484 Thanks
    orrery
    I'm still thinking that there could be a PWII price drop announcement any day, perhaps 20%, but at the same time, why would they if demand is outstripping supply. So frustrating.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    The price reductions do keep coming, but in price/kWh terms.

    There has been very little price change in the Nissan Leaf as it has moved from 24kWh > 30kWh > 40kWh.

    There are several 'Giga factories' under construction (I saw an estimate of 22 mainly in China) and I don't think we will see any reductions until they come on-line. Timescale? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Longer term, the Grid scale batteries are likely to be a different technology - Flow Batteries.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 5:37 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This weeks Carbon Commentary newsletter has a couple of items on battery storage that (partially) relate to today's chat. Maybe we shouldn't wait for cheap batt prices, but subsidised batts:-

    3, 'Virtual Power Plants'. Another interesting plan to use batteries to avoid a grid upgrade. The utility covering Lebanon, a small New Hampshire town, is offering to subsidise household batteries for 300 homes. The aim is to avoid a $0.6m substation improvement cost but, more importantly, to reduce the need to import power into the area at times of high prices. The utility will be able to control the batteries during such periods. The supplier also wants to switch to a ‘time of use’ tariff for its battery-equipped homes, promising the owners savings of $500 a year. I suspect that this type of arrangement will become conventional: the utility will control the home battery and use this control to hold down demand peaks or to deal with unexpected grid events. The homeowner will see lowered bills if she transfers most electricity use to the cheaper hours of the day.

    4, Batteries and grid reliability. The world’s largest battery, at Hornsdale in South Australia, has proved its value in its first months of operation. The Australian grid operator released a report saying that the 129 MWh Tesla battery ‘can provide a range of valuable power system services and including rapid, accurate frequency response and control’. It also stated that the unit ‘is capable of responding more rapidly to a contingency event than conventional synchronous generation’. The grid operator concludes that batteries should be rewarded more generously than other forms of electricity supply because of their greater responsiveness.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Longer term, the Grid scale batteries are likely to be a different technology - Flow Batteries.
    Originally posted by orrery
    I've thought the same. Lithium has pulled ahead a bit lately, but flow batts look really promising if costs come down with higher production.

    There's a news article just today pointing out the longer life expectancy of Flow batts, and the fact they can be abused by using their full capacity, without harm:

    “The Future of Energy is Here” Panel Highlights Vanadium Flow Batteries
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 16th Apr 18, 9:30 AM
    • 2,909 Posts
    • 1,217 Thanks
    NigeWick
    I expect the home battery system market to remain very slow until fully installed prices fall below £150/kWh and growth to accelerate quickly as prices approach £100/kWh.
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I think you're probably correct. I can afford to be an early adopter so I'm doing it.

    Powerwall 2 is costing me £5,000 plus VAT and installation. If one has just the battery, VAT is 20%. But, if included as part of a system, it's 5%. Therefore I'm having a couple of 300W Panels and inverter etc fitted with the battery for the same cost as just having the battery.

    I haven't even tried to work out the sums, but, I can afford to pay outright and know that I'll have cheap electricity no matter what time of year as spring to autumn it will mainly be solar and in winter I can save Economy 7 to use during the day when the solar isn't enough.

    And, when Tesla gets a grip (later this year?), I will be able to disconnect from the grid in the unlikely event of a power cut.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th May 18, 5:05 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Just went into the Tesla site to show Wifey what the Model 3 looks like, well one can dream, and then drifted to the energy / Powerwall section for a quick look.

    Whilst eyeing up the Powerwall II it dawned on me just how thin it is, so looked at the specs for some numbers, and saw it was 155mm for D for depth under dimensions.

    My brain quickly pointed out to me that that's just over 6 inches.

    Then noticed that the image had metric and imperial figures already on it ...... but ...... none of them match!

    The height (or length) is out by over an inch, or 32.4mm to be pedantic.

    Given Tesla's reputation for attention to detail, I can't help wondering if this is test/trick?

    Reminds me of a holiday booking a couple of decades back. We were getting the tickets from the lovely lady in the high street store, when she told us our luggage allowance was two suitcases each of 20kg or 40lbs. I asked which was it, 20kg or 40lbs, and Wifey (to be) kicked me.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 06-05-2018 at 5:40 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th May 18, 1:13 PM
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    NigeWick
    Just went into the Tesla site
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    My PW2 is up and running nicely. The electrician had trouble commissioning it as the wireless wouldn't connect with my system. He ended up putting in a D-Link and states he will do that as a matter of course in future as he spent four hours trying at first.

    My solar system is now 4.6kW with the addition of the two 300W panels. At present, the only time we're sucking mains is when showering as it is 9kW and it's too early in the morning for the solar to add it's full load to the 5kW the battery can push out. The last few days, we've only used 2% from the grid.

    Saturday the solar filled the PW2, heated the water, did some washing, cooked everything we wanted and whacked some 14.5kWh into the car.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 29th May 18, 8:42 AM
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    Martyn1981
    A little bit of Sonnen news. If they keep expanding and prices fall, then some Tesla competition and hopefully some lowering of prices, but don't hold your breath, could be a few years.

    Shell & Others Invest $70 Million Into Sonnen
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 29th May 18, 8:50 AM
    • 7,245 Posts
    • 11,701 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Just went into the Tesla site to show Wifey what the Model 3 looks like, well one can dream, and then drifted to the energy / Powerwall section for a quick look.

    Whilst eyeing up the Powerwall II it dawned on me just how thin it is, so looked at the specs for some numbers, and saw it was 155mm for D for depth under dimensions.

    My brain quickly pointed out to me that that's just over 6 inches.

    Then noticed that the image had metric and imperial figures already on it ...... but ...... none of them match!

    The height (or length) is out by over an inch, or 32.4mm to be pedantic.

    Given Tesla's reputation for attention to detail, I can't help wondering if this is test/trick?

    Reminds me of a holiday booking a couple of decades back. We were getting the tickets from the lovely lady in the high street store, when she told us our luggage allowance was two suitcases each of 20kg or 40lbs. I asked which was it, 20kg or 40lbs, and Wifey (to be) kicked me.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Well no reply from Tesla (so much for an upto 48hr response), and the specs haven't changed.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 30th May 18, 11:07 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Great article looking at the economics of home batts with solar.

    It's all about Australia, but the theory still works, and the article suggests that the Aussie market is close to viable, which will push up demand (and supply), which in turn should increase supply and reduce prices.

    Still years to go for us I fear, but at least it is happening, and gathering speed.

    The first graph is promising, showing the falling cost of battery systems. Not bad for less than a year.

    Home Battery Storage In Australia: Are We There Yet?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Jun 18, 12:05 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Well no reply from Tesla (so much for an upto 48hr response), and the specs haven't changed.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Got an apology from Tesla stating that the issue of metric v's imperial dimensions has been passed up (again) eg 5.5" = 155mm. And today on checking the site, the metric dimensions have all changed (imperial remain the same) and they match, eg 5.5" = 140mm, hooray.

    No e-mail or thanks though, oh well, I could mock the 'Muricans' for struggling with metric but Elon industries has taught a rocket to fly backwards and thus reduced the cost of space launches massively, so I suspect they know what they are doing, when it really matters.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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