Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 4th Dec 16, 4:49 PM
    • 92Posts
    • 26Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Parking Charge, IPC Member, inadequate signage
    • #1
    • 4th Dec 16, 4:49 PM
    Parking Charge, IPC Member, inadequate signage 4th Dec 16 at 4:49 PM
    Hi all,

    I have read through the stickied threads and I am very grateful for the wealth of useful information posted there.

    I wanted to get some advice on a situation where in my opinion the ticket is completely unjustified as a result of inadequate signage.

    The driver parked on a road on a business park and subsequently got a "parking charge notice" from District Enforcement on the windscreen. District Enforcement are a member of the IPC and I am aware from reading here that this is a questionable setup.

    The car was parked normally at the side of the road, with no markings or yellow lines, not near a junction and not causing an obstruction. A little after the cars are parked there are automatic barriers which lead into a car park.

    The justification for the ticket is apparently a sign at the start of the road. This sign is not is not visible as you drive in – I invite you to view the following photo: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ao45qLpxXG3_gdFdYgBEOD5G2Cj8eA
    The sign is strapped with cable ties to the lamppost on the left at the start of the road. As you can see, it is not visible. It is at 90 degrees to the road and the only way you would see it is if you were walking on the road. There are no such signs in the part of the road where the cars are actually parked (which you can see in the distance). I do have lots of other photos of the area too.

    Here is a close-up photo of the sign: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ao45qLpxXG3_gdFbxTwDcICLGJJS1A

    The reason given on the ticket is "Parking in the no parking area".

    I don't know if this is a new arrangement but I think it is worth mentioning that every single car around the one I refer to here also had these “Parking Charge Notices” which further suggests that the signage is completely inadequate.

    I am inclined to appeal as I did read on another well-known parking-related forum that one of the few times the IAS have found in favour of the driver is in cases of inadequate signage.

    If anyone has any thoughts or queries I would welcome them. I'm happy to provide more details if requested.

    Thanks.
Page 6
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 28th Nov 17, 9:35 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Thank you very much Coupon-mad. I am drafting this up now. Should I CC this email to Gallstones? I saw mention in other threads that this sort of correspondence should include them at this stage.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 28th Nov 17, 9:41 PM
    • 7,240 Posts
    • 6,770 Thanks
    KeithP
    I thought you were going to send that five days ago??
    .
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 28th Nov 17, 9:44 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Unfortunately real life got in the way KeithP. I hope it might still be worth doing.
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 28th Nov 17, 9:58 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Perhaps what might be best is if I call the court again tomorrow to see if they have received anything yet (I still haven't certainly). If not I will proceed with the email. If they have, I will just raise it on the day.
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 29th Nov 17, 12:37 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Right, I've called the court and the case has been discontinued so I almost certainly won't have to attend (my case was still listed for hearing but they suggested that it just hasn't been updated so I'll check again later in the week).

    I want to apply for costs and generally complain about their behaviour throughout - how am I best doing this now the situation has changed, in the same manner as suggested earlier by Coupon-mad?

    I will also follow up with the DVLA from my earlier complaint about DE's dishonesty and the IPC / Gladstones setup in general.

    Thanks so much for everyone's help
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 29th Nov 17, 12:47 PM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,081 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Costs - youd have to ask for th hearing to be converted to a costs hearing, but unless you can convince the court that costs for unreasonable behaviour can be awarded, you currently dont HAVE any costs that can be claimed.

    Complaint - MP would be best bet.
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 29th Nov 17, 7:13 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    It's extremely frustrating that I have spent hours and hours preparing this and they can just drop the case a few days before the hearing with seemingly little chance of me claiming any costs. They should not be allowed to get away with this behaviour.

    I will write to the court and complain and try to claim costs, even if it's a pointless exercise I will feel better for doing it. I will also definitely think about contacting my MP.

    Once again, I am really grateful for all the help I received on here. Many thanks!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 10:51 AM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,081 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    MP is the best bet at reforming the whole industry. as you will know from this forum, there is a private members bill to try to sort this whole sorry mess out. Channel your anger that way - that the govt refuses to legislate on this issue, having been lied to by the BPA in allowing Keeper liability in the first place (they claimed court cases would go DOWN, they went UP massively) and allowing access to Keeper data by parastitical, crooked companies.

    That is also the point of small claims track - that costs are minimised to stop you being afraid to take part in the process and just always settle. Unfdorutnatley PPCs have worked out they can make a profit by using courts a sa debt collection system, folding only when they know theyre likely to lose a defended hearing. The court will not care about your complaint. They will see this as the normal function. You will not get a restraint order as your case will either be seen as a one off, or else if they do look at the totality of claims, will see that the PPC likely "wins" most of them - as LIP are often awful at following the fairly straightforward deadlines on forms, so they get a default judgement.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Dec 17, 6:17 AM
    • 2,313 Posts
    • 4,131 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    there is a private members bill to try to sort this whole sorry mess out.
    Sorry to be negative about this, the Bill is unlikely to do this and may just be a way to protect the DVLA's income stream from the GRDP which would restrict the DVLA in giving out data more than 1 year old.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 22nd Apr 18, 7:29 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    I have an unexpected but positive update to this...

    I sent an email to the court at the end of last year expressing my frustration and trying to make a case that the claimant's behaviour had been unreasonable.

    I never heard anything back and eventually dropped it and moved on.

    Last week I received a letter from the court saying that they were satisfied that the claimant had behaved unreasonably in their conduct and ordered them to pay £128.50 (the full amount I had claimed for in my Schedule of Costs).

    A few days later I received a cheque from Gladstones for the same amount.

    Very happy with this outcome and it restored some faith in "the system" for me.

    I'm having a Chinese takeaway on them tonight

    Thanks once again for everyone's help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 18, 7:35 PM
    • 57,564 Posts
    • 71,120 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Wow, very well done!

    Goes to show that you can get costs from some Judges even after a discontinuance.

    Can you show us the letter you used, did you keep a copy you can link?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Apr 18, 7:48 PM
    • 7,240 Posts
    • 6,770 Thanks
    KeithP
    I will also definitely think about contacting my MP.
    Originally posted by behindtheeye
    Did you get any further with this?

    In February this year a Private Members Bill - Parking (Code of Practice) Bill - had it's second reading in the House of Commons.

    MPs decided that it is time for change, and unanimously agreed that the Bill should pass to the next stage.

    Can you find time to view this video:
    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Apr 18, 9:27 PM
    • 17,630 Posts
    • 27,891 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'm having a Chinese takeaway on them tonight
    I bet they throw in some fortune cookies!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • behindtheeye
    • By behindtheeye 22nd Apr 18, 9:55 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    behindtheeye
    Below is a copy of the email I sent, Coupon-mad.

    KeithP, I did not contact my MP and to be honest I don't think I will now as justice has, at least partially, been served. With that said, if you really think a robustly-worded email detailing my experiences would make a difference then I might consider it.

    How much of that video is relevant?

    ------

    I email regarding the above claim (now discontinued), where I am the defendant.

    I called the Court on both xx and xx November who confirmed that no Witness Statement or Evidence had been received from the Claimant's solicitors, despite the order of the court that said documents should be submitted no later than fourteen days before the hearing (originally scheduled for today, xx December).

    When I made a further phone call to the court last week, to check whether any documents had been submitted by the Claimant's solicitors, I was told that the case had been discontinued.

    This conduct follows an entirely vexatious and wholly unreasonable claim from start to finish.

    I would like to list some of the ways in which the Claimant and their solicitors have behaved unreasonably throughout:

    1. The signage upon which the Claimant relies was merely a piece of cardboard attached to a lamppost with a cable-tie. The direction of the sign changed depending of the wind and could frequently not be seen at all. The location in question is a side-road in a business park with no double-yellow lines or other road markings and not identifiable as a car park, particularly in view of the completely inadequate signage.

    2. The Claimant claimed to have obtained Registered Keeper details from the DVLA before they had actually done so - a fact that was subsequently confirmed by the DVLA and followed up with a complaint to them.

    3. As no evidence had been provided to suggest who was driving the vehicle, the Claimant was pursuing me as Registered Keeper of the vehicle in question yet they failed to comply with the terms of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, so cannot lawfully hold a Registered Keeper liable.

    4. The Claimant's solicitors did not send a letter which complied with the pre-action protocol under the Practice Direction, despite a request from me to do so.

    5. The particulars of claim were extremely vague and contained a bare minimum of information. This put me at a significant disadvantage as an unrepresented Defendant.

    6. The claimed value of £xxx.xx (plus court & legal representative costs) was a completely unsubstantiated and inflated three-figure sum, vaguely and incoherently adduced by the Claimant's solicitors in their claim.

    7. Today, which would have been the day of the hearing, I received a copy of the notice of discontinuance from the Claimant's solicitors in the post. Had I not called the court last week I would have made a wasted journey to the court because the letter would have arrived after I left the house and in any case too late to cancel the day off work.

    Further details of the above and more detailed legal arguments are available in my Defence and Witness Statement, both of which were submitted within the deadline to the Court and the Claimant's solicitors.

    I have attached a Schedule of Costs pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14(2)(g) and hope that you may give them some consideration in view of the substantial amount of disruption this completely baseless claim has caused me, time which would have been far better spent with my family.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Apr 18, 10:04 PM
    • 17,630 Posts
    • 27,891 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I did not contact my MP and to be honest I don't think I will now as justice has, at least partially, been served. With that said, if you really think a robustly-worded email detailing my experiences would make a difference then I might consider it.
    Of course it will - you are 'speaking' to the country's law makers, and the laws around private parking companies are up for serious scrutiny and change (Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill).

    Please don't just see your parking charge in isolation and be happy it's off your back - there is a much bigger picture to influence, and it's what forum regulars come here every day to do - as well as helping individuals with their own micro problems.

    Please help those who have helped you.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

166Posts Today

1,295Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • It's the start of mini MSE's half term. In order to be the best daddy possible, Im stopping work and going off line? https://t.co/kwjvtd75YU

  • RT @shellsince1982: @MartinSLewis thanx to your email I have just saved myself £222 by taking a SIM only deal for £7.50 a month and keeping?

  • Today's Friday twitter poll: An important question, building on yesterday's important discussions: Which is the best bit of the pizza...

  • Follow Martin