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    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 14th Jul 16, 12:37 AM
    • 67Posts
    • 33Thanks
    pilavas
    land boundaries issue
    • #1
    • 14th Jul 16, 12:37 AM
    land boundaries issue 14th Jul 16 at 12:37 AM
    Hi Guys,

    I am stuck in a muddle of puddle at present so here goes:

    Just bought a house and thought everything was going well until my neighbour decided to pull down the fence which I'm responsible for and rebuild it while I was at work.

    I am the only property with a garage which requires a side drive entrance to get to the garage at the rear of the property, luckily my misses was at home and I managed to get him to stop but at the point he had already dug the trench and poured cement down.

    Upon speaking to him over the phone he said that the boundaries are all wrong and he wanted to put it right claiming that I have taken around 60 cm of his land but this fence was erected over 50 years ago now. He also wants to take part of my front drive for him claiming he owns part of it. Now me panicking I called the previous owner who was also stunned at what was happening and confirmed that he went to the council back in 1979 to apply for extra drive side land which was granted, he told me he got a solicitor to do all the work for him which was granted.

    I now plan on making contact with the solicitor which are still around to see if they have any form of record regarding this case and also contacting the local council. I have checked the title register and can't see much to go by.

    Is there anything else I can do ?

    When the previous owner bought the property off the council he decided to apply for more side space from the other property as it was council owned.

    I have already contacted the police to ensure he does not start building again until this is resolved, but i have a gut feeling he will trying and finish the work while im away.

    Thanks in advance.
    Fazil
Page 5
    • exiled_red
    • By exiled_red 27th Aug 16, 3:12 PM
    • 260 Posts
    • 167 Thanks
    exiled_red
    The previous owner was a council tenant since the 1960s and bought it from the council in 1980, I have some paper work on this. He also asked a solicitor to submit planning application for the garage but unfortunately I only have a letter date back in the 1980s from the solicitor submitting the application.

    I ask the law firm for any paperwork on this but they only keep it for ten years, the council had nothing in this which is why the previous owner sign an affidavitt to coonfirm that the fence has never changed in the past 30 years I have the pic above with the owner in it confirming this.

    What is RTB ?
    Originally posted by pilavas
    RTB - right to buy
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 27th Aug 16, 3:54 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    He is a polish builder and he built the extension when he moved in 8 years ago, I have pictures to prove this. He is just trying it thinking new owner won't say anything. Also I hate to say this it might be a racist thing I am Indian and previous owner is white.
    .
    Originally posted by pilavas
    I'm not following why you think this would be racist in the circumstances - unless you are trying to say you think a British neighbour would have been treated better by him?
    • LittleMax
    • By LittleMax 27th Aug 16, 4:16 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
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    LittleMax
    The previous owner was a council tenant since the 1960s and bought it from the council in 1980, I have some paper work on this. He also asked a solicitor to submit planning application for the garage but unfortunately I only have a letter date back in the 1980s from the solicitor submitting the application.

    I ask the law firm for any paperwork on this but they only keep it for ten years, the council had nothing in this which is why the previous owner sign an affidavitt to coonfirm that the fence has never changed in the past 30 years I have the pic above with the owner in it confirming this.

    What is RTB ?
    Originally posted by pilavas
    So the garage was built in 1980 and replaces the earlier garage from the 1960's? But even so this will not prove how wide the drive is and who it belongs to.

    It looks to me as though years ago person who rented your house had a car and next door neighbour didn't so wasn't bothered about the person in your house having more of the drive.

    I can't see the houses opposite very clearly from the photos but it looks as though they have a hedge in the middle. Presume others in street are similar.

    I can see why your neighbour would believe the boundary should be reinstated back to the middle - but he is probably unfamiliar with adverse possession and English property law.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 27th Aug 16, 6:36 PM
    • 27,297 Posts
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    Davesnave
    To be fair, I doubt if the majority of people born in England and Wales have a clear understanding of our property laws, but many, from all nationalities, consider a pre-emptive strike the best option if they're in a position of weakness.

    The neighbour has no garage, so it might seem there's very little for him to gain here. I'd guess he wants to put his motorbike closer to the house and still walk past it, but that is just a guess.

    To be honest, even with the OP's original drive, I'd not want to access the garage by car every day either. Like many people, most cars have become somewhat broader in the beam since the 1960s!
    Last edited by Davesnave; 27-08-2016 at 6:39 PM.
    'There are places to go beyond belief'

    Neil Armstrong, apparently referring to worlds beyond the solar system.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 27th Aug 16, 11:47 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    He was just trying his luck, I mean why wait until new neighbours move in and then strike ?

    He thought I would be a soft target and since I am new wouln't be bothered but I am very bothered at his aggressive handling of the situation.

    Guys You can't just let someone walk all over you and get the better of you, I went through hell to buy a house and now this !!!! turns and claims something that's not actually his ?

    He is going by whats on his title plan, a straight line between our two houses and the two opposite but It also shows on the title plan that the houses are also in a straight line but it does not reflect whats on the ground.

    I tried to explain all this to him also the fact that he cannot use the title plans on the deeds as an accurate measurement of the boundary. That's all the evidence he has why did he wait 8 years to start the work on the day after I moved in.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 27th Aug 16, 11:50 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    I'm not following why you think this would be racist in the circumstances - unless you are trying to say you think a British neighbour would have been treated better by him?
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    I know what you mean but he did have an issue with the Sri lankans who share the semi with him.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 27th Aug 16, 11:54 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    To be fair, I doubt if the majority of people born in England and Wales have a clear understanding of our property laws, but many, from all nationalities, consider a pre-emptive strike the best option if they're in a position of weakness.

    The neighbour has no garage, so it might seem there's very little for him to gain here. I'd guess he wants to put his motorbike closer to the house and still walk past it, but that is just a guess.

    To be honest, even with the OP's original drive, I'd not want to access the garage by car every day either. Like many people, most cars have become somewhat broader in the beam since the 1960s!
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    I don't think I will be using the garage for my car either but he originally claimed it was a metre I owed him so he is clearly lying
    he also mentioned he had already discussed this with the previous owner who I confirmed with and said they had agreed nothing.
    Our boundary is a straight line and with his hostile take over it will make it crooked and drop the value of my property. He knows what he is doing is wrong but he done it anyway.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 28th Aug 16, 7:41 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    In fairness re the waiting 8 years to do work on a property - that may be down to having to wait for the money to be able to do it.

    I threw a lot of money at my current house when I first moved in but it still needs more money (ie tens of thousands of s) in order to make it more "normal" in my eyes and I'm having to just work my way through finishing the house now as and when I've saved up another "pot" of money to do the next thing on The List.

    He may be in the same sort of financial position, ie of having to save up and do next thing, then save up again and do the thing after that, etc.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 28th Aug 16, 10:05 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    In fairness re the waiting 8 years to do work on a property - that may be down to having to wait for the money to be able to do it.

    I threw a lot of money at my current house when I first moved in but it still needs more money (ie tens of thousands of s) in order to make it more "normal" in my eyes and I'm having to just work my way through finishing the house now as and when I've saved up another "pot" of money to do the next thing on The List.

    He may be in the same sort of financial position, ie of having to save up and do next thing, then save up again and do the thing after that, etc.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    Sorry money I don't quite follow what you mean, Since he managed to save some money over 8 years he can now pay and move the boundary fence ?

    Also the fence has been there for over 30 years what right does he have ? The plot of land is not an exact square. I don't know how else to say this what he has done is not fair. I just moved in (12th of July) and he suddenly manages to amass enough funds to remove my boundary fence the following day, It doesn't make sense.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 28th Aug 16, 1:39 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    Ok guy quick update,

    Juts got a letter through my door from my neighbour.
    He is now suggesting a land survey to be done and he will respect the surveyors decision on the matter. I think this is progress however If the surveyor determines that the boundary in in the wrong place what happens next, do we just agree what the land surveyor says and put the boundary back to it original state ?

    I mean the boundary has been there for over 12 years will the surveyor take that into account ?
    • LittleMax
    • By LittleMax 28th Aug 16, 8:39 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
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    LittleMax
    There was never a shared drive way, from what the previous owner who lived there since the 1960s told me there was a shrubb covering both sides and acting as a boundary, he then spoke to the council to cut the shrub back and agree to build a garage, the council provided me with a copy of a planning application regarding a garage to be built back in 1966 which was rejected on the ground that the calculations were wrong, but since then the garage was built and have had no complaints till 1 month ago.
    Originally posted by pilavas
    Are you sure?

    All I have at the moment is the ordnance map showing the garage and clearly should have the drive way along with it and some areas of my title deeds are crossed out especially where is says something about shared pathway.
    Originally posted by pilavas
    • LittleMax
    • By LittleMax 28th Aug 16, 8:43 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,941 Thanks
    LittleMax
    Ok guy quick update,

    Juts got a letter through my door from my neighbour.
    He is now suggesting a land survey to be done and he will respect the surveyors decision on the matter. I think this is progress however If the surveyor determines that the boundary in in the wrong place what happens next, do we just agree what the land surveyor says and put the boundary back to it original state ?

    I mean the boundary has been there for over 12 years will the surveyor take that into account ?
    Originally posted by pilavas
    You mentioned your solicitor suggested a survey, so what does your solicitor say?
    • rjwr
    • By rjwr 28th Aug 16, 10:54 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 208 Thanks
    rjwr
    This happened with my parents house. Both council tenants and the neighbours built a carport in a drive similar to the op's photo.

    The council solved the dispute, although we never made the dispute known to the neighbours, they built boundary fences at every house in the street, when they came to ours, they put a fence right down the middle, car port and all, it matched every other property and therefor made sense.

    a surveyor may also think this way
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 28th Aug 16, 10:55 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    You mentioned your solicitor suggested a survey, so what does your solicitor say?
    Originally posted by LittleMax
    Will speak with him on Tuesday, This whole thing is a mess and as far as I'm concerned the boundary has always been there as far back as the 1960s. the earliest picture I have is the 1980s which should be good enough.

    In a way I just want to put an end to this, It's so stressful dealing with all this, but I think its progress that he is now corporating.
    • Pricivius
    • By Pricivius 30th Aug 16, 2:02 PM
    • 614 Posts
    • 1,013 Thanks
    Pricivius
    Ok guy quick update,

    Juts got a letter through my door from my neighbour.
    He is now suggesting a land survey to be done and he will respect the surveyors decision on the matter. I think this is progress however If the surveyor determines that the boundary in in the wrong place what happens next, do we just agree what the land surveyor says and put the boundary back to it original state ?

    I mean the boundary has been there for over 12 years will the surveyor take that into account ?
    Originally posted by pilavas
    IF the surveyor is prepared to give a definitive decision, you can apply to the Land Registry to delineate the boundary. You need to fill out a form, pay a fee, both confirm that you agree to the surveyoir's findings and submit a plan drawn up by the surveyor which describes exactly where the boundary sits. This then sits on both your entries on the Land Registry and the matter is concluded.

    BUT be aware that a surveyor may not be prepared to give a definitive answer. If he will only state his findings with 65% confidence, will this be good enough for your neighbour?

    You should both be able to provide submissions to the surveyor, setting out all your documentary evidence. You should both meet with the surveyor on site, preferably separately, to discuss the boundary and point out the relevant features and where you each think the line sits.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 30th Aug 16, 2:45 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    I will have to claim adverse possession on this one may be if the surveyor feels the boundary is in the wrong place, but the current fence has always been there since the houses were built how else can the surveyor determine the exact location ?

    I know it can't be an exact science, as you are just going with whats on the ground and the surroundings etc...

    But I know if the surveyor thinks the boundary is in my neighbours favour my neighbor will just rip it up and re adjust to his liking.
    • Seanymph
    • By Seanymph 30th Aug 16, 3:36 PM
    • 2,710 Posts
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    Seanymph
    Surely abiding by a surveyors decision is no different from abiding by a judges decision - except it's cheaper!

    If the neighbour is prepared to abide, get him tied into it, get a surveyor, and get it over with.
    • LittleMax
    • By LittleMax 31st Aug 16, 12:13 AM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,941 Thanks
    LittleMax
    I will have to claim adverse possession on this one may be if the surveyor feels the boundary is in the wrong place, but the current fence has always been there since the houses were built how else can the surveyor determine the exact location ?

    I know it can't be an exact science, as you are just going with whats on the ground and the surroundings etc...

    But I know if the surveyor thinks the boundary is in my neighbours favour my neighbor will just rip it up and re adjust to his liking.
    Originally posted by pilavas
    But the fence can't have been been in its current position since the houses were built, otherwise why did the previous owner need to apply for extra land from the neighbouring property in 1979...

    I called the previous owner who was also stunned at what was happening and confirmed that he went to the council back in 1979 to apply for extra drive side land which was granted, he told me he got a solicitor to do all the work for him which was granted.

    When the previous owner bought the property off the council he decided to apply for more side space from the other property as it was council owned.
    Originally posted by pilavas
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 31st Aug 16, 7:03 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    But the fence can't have been been in its current position since the houses were built, otherwise why did the previous owner need to apply for extra land from the neighbouring property in 1979...
    Originally posted by LittleMax
    True.

    ....and it still strikes me as such a wierd thing to do - ie for the previous owner to "apply for" extra side space. Well - wierd/selfish/etc. Basically it says that the last owner decided he could manage to get some of next door's garden by "applying for" it to the Council. I just wouldnt have thought a Council would transfer a little bit of garden on one of their houses to another one of their houses - ie why would they?

    Either OP has the written proof that the Council granted this odd request or he doesnt. If he has written proof that the Council gave this bit of land to OP's house donkeys years back - then he has proof it's his (though it wasnt in the first place) and just shows that to neighbour and that's the end of it.

    Or he doesnt have proof and neighbour is correct and land is still his and that's the end of it. Neighbour isnt going to believe that his land is no longer his without that proof - and who can blame him.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 31-08-2016 at 7:06 AM.
    • pilavas
    • By pilavas 31st Aug 16, 5:44 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    pilavas
    True.

    ....and it still strikes me as such a wierd thing to do - ie for the previous owner to "apply for" extra side space. Well - wierd/selfish/etc. Basically it says that the last owner decided he could manage to get some of next door's garden by "applying for" it to the Council. I just wouldnt have thought a Council would transfer a little bit of garden on one of their houses to another one of their houses - ie why would they?

    Either OP has the written proof that the Council granted this odd request or he doesnt. If he has written proof that the Council gave this bit of land to OP's house donkeys years back - then he has proof it's his (though it wasnt in the first place) and just shows that to neighbour and that's the end of it.

    Or he doesnt have proof and neighbour is correct and land is still his and that's the end of it. Neighbour isnt going to believe that his land is no longer his without that proof - and who can blame him.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    Regarding the earlier comment it was not actually applying for extra land, It was planning for a garage but in 1966 which was granted and he built it however the council gave me the planning application for this which was rejected, but can't find anything else on file.

    The previous owner is 84 years old he put the fence up in 1966 using concrete post which we never moved and always replaced using new fences attaching them to the concrete posts all the time.

    I am just the innocent one here and the fact my neighbour decided to remove my fence the day after the previous owner moved out shows he knows what he is doing is wrong.

    I will be getting the survey done next week and If I have to go to court to resolve this once and for all.
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