The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mollycat · 3 January 2017 at 11:19AM

Great post....but far beyond the comprehension of those who you would hope to take it on board.

TBH the quality of pro indy propaganda posted here now is up there with that of the 1930's.

As disgusting as it is transparent.

kabayiri · 3 January 2017 at 11:26AM

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

...
Isn't it funny how the two that were shouting loudest after the EU referendum were the ones with the lowest turnout?
...

Normally, a typical excuse for poor turnout is a lack of real promotion on the vote.

That can not be alleged here. I can think of no campaign in my history which has had more promotion than the EU ref.

Sturgeon's claim that Scottish voters (Scotland) wants to be at the heart of Europe is patently untrue.

Give it a couple of years. Maybe their appetite will come back.

Shakethedisease · 3 January 2017 at 11:49AM

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It's too soon now?

Your opinion changes with the direction of the wind, as long as it revolves around independence.

You once said to me you'd taken the time to understand everything about the independence choice, the more you post the clearer it is that you did not and do not.

Something else apparent in your posts, it's possible to be objective when considering evidence even when you have a bias, you simply are not. If the polls are to be believed then support for independence has fallen since the EU referendum vote.

2017 is too soon for an independence referendum. 2018 will be better, we'll all have a fair understanding by then what Brexit actually means, as well as how May's government copes with it all and how they run the UK in terms of day to day policies, budgets and legislation.

Yes, imo Scots should get a full and clear picture what kind of UK they're in store for over the next decade or so before they vote again. Let Brexit and this Tory govt 'marinate' for a while...

The downward trajectory is there for all to see, the experts on law, constitutional and EU are mocking Sturgeon and nation states are denying what the SNP government claims to be true. They made a play, effectively rolled the dice, and it is backfiring.

As I said before the die hard support will support whatever she does as those idolising Jesus allegedly turning water into wine.

See comment re smug complacency. Do keep on with it as it's a very good thing for the independence side. Repeat over and over about backfiring, loss of support, Sturgeon being slapped down and how Scotland will never vote for independence and how half of Scotland are now mere brainwashed cult members.

The longer people like you, vested interest media and politicians do, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. It's when the polls and complacency turn that we'll no doubt have to suffer endless panic trips by May, Corbyn and various celebs. The media punting out 24/7 stories about Great Depressions and Vow promises of 'more powers' honest. The longer we avoid all that circus again the better.

I submit that the SNP is a political religion. One that is trying to entrench itself by changing the face of Scotland from what we currently understand it to be. The state display of a language other than that of the majority of the populace that espouses Scottish values as perceived by the SNP (see bibles in latin). The lies told to the population by the clergy and the unquestioning acceptance of those lies by the devout. The dedication to a singular cause, draws parallels with the ambition by Christians to enter heaven and avoid sin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_religion

You and other indy supporters in the past have been keen to point out where your societal values differ to the rest of us, virtue signalling that your views are more acceptable, welcoming and pious than ours. The hashtag #WeAreScotland was a great example in modern social media of a sacrilization of the ethics and values of a Scottish independence movement.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/alexandra-stein/lambeths-political-cult-lessons

Point 1 is obviously whoever is the party leader, point 2 is by default, 3 is exclusive to the SNP and 4 is on display for all to see on this forum. One particular case for point 4 is the blatant lie that leaving the EU will be worse for the Scottish economy than leaving the UK.

Invoking terror at the thought of leaving the EU, whilst having previously been fine with doing so (2014), looks like propaganda/brainwashing to me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/01/voters-open-your-eyes-and-escape-these-political-cults/

Submit what you like. My vote is just as valid as yours is and in the case of Scottish independence, I actually have one. If you think that simply having the opinion that Scotland's political and economic affairs would be best run from Holyrood rather than Westminster is evidence of the fact that I'm some sort of raving cult loon then feel free.

But for many in Scotland it's actually a pretty run of the mill opinion to have these days. I make no apologies for it. And like I said, and have said several times, it'll be the 'vote No for 10 years of Tories' narratives that will swing far more votes and no shows at the ballot box of a hypothetical independence referendum than the EU. The no shows being just as important to the overall result.

It was an argument that couldn't find much traction in the first referendum because it didn't look like the Conservatives would be in power. But even putting a relatively objective head on with the last few days of media coverage in Scotland.. it's one the SNP and the independence movement is going to use extremely forcefully. You can see the language changing almost from the moment the bells struck on New Year's Day.

Sturgeon hits out at "arrogant and foolish" Scottish Tories

The Tories, she continued, “now think they can do whatever they want to Scotland, and the people of Scotland will simply sit back and take it", renewing her attack on Ruth Davidson's party.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14996601.Sturgeon_hits_out_at__quot_arrogant_and_foolish_quot__Scottish_Tories/

Now I know that you might not like the above and what's being said for obvious reasons. But there IS little in the way of doubt that this sort of anti-Tory messaging is something Scots voters have always been very amenable to ? Labour used it for decades even well before devolution was on the cards. It served them extremely well too.

TrickyTree83 · 3 January 2017 at 12:01PM

Shakethedisease wrote: »

2017 is too soon for an independence referendum. 2018 will be better, we'll all have a fair understanding by then what Brexit actually means, as well as how May's government copes with it all and how they run the UK in terms of day to day policies, budgets and legislation.

Yes, imo Scots should get a full and clear picture what kind of UK they're in store for over the next decade or so before they vote again. Let Brexit and this Tory govt 'marinate' for a while...

See comment re smug complacency. Do keep on with it as it's a very good thing for the independence side. Repeat over and over about backfiring, loss of support, Sturgeon being slapped down and how Scotland will never vote for independence and how half of Scotland are now mere brainwashed cult members.

The longer people like you, vested interest media and politicians do, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. It's when the polls and complacency turn that we'll no doubt have to suffer endless panic trips by May, Corbyn and various celebs. The media punting out 24/7 stories about Great Depressions and Vow promises of 'more powers' honest. The longer we avoid all that circus again the better.

Submit what you like. My vote is just as valid as yours is and in the case of Scottish independence, I actually have one. If you think that simply having the opinion that Scotland's political and economic affairs would be best run from Holyrood rather than Westminster is evidence of the fact that I'm some sort of raving cult loon then feel free.

But for many in Scotland it's actually a pretty run of the mill opinion to have these days. I make no apologies for it. And like I said, and have said several times, it'll be the 'vote No for 10 years of Tories' narratives that will swing far more votes and no shows at the ballot box of a hypothetical independence referendum than the EU. The no shows being just as important to the overall result.

It was an argument that couldn't find much traction in the first referendum because it didn't look like the Conservatives would be in power. But even putting a relatively objective head on with the last few days of media coverage in Scotland.. it's one the SNP and the independence movement is going to use extremely forcefully. You can see the language changing almost from the moment the bells struck on New Year's Day.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14996601.Sturgeon_hits_out_at__quot_arrogant_and_foolish_quot__Scottish_Tories/

Now I know that you might not like the above and what's being said for obvious reasons. But there IS little in the way of doubt that this sort of anti-Tory messaging is something Scots voters have always been very amenable to ? Labour used it for decades even well before devolution was on the cards. It served them extremely well too.

Sounds very much like you believe the SNP's tactics of smearing the Conservatives is a greater argument than that for independence and EU membership combined.

Telling...

kabayiri · 3 January 2017 at 12:01PM

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...
Now I know that you might not like the above and what's being said for obvious reasons. But there IS little in the way of doubt that this sort of anti-Tory messaging is something Scots voters have always been very amenable to ? Labour used it for decades even well before devolution was on the cards. It served them extremely well too.

I don't follow Scottish spending too closely, so this is a genuine question.

What particular evidence is there that Westminster is targetting cutbacks at Scotland?

Despite austerity claims, state spending is still very high, especially the purse of public sector employees. And Scotland has more than it's fair share of public sector employees.

Then there is the continuing tax break support for the oil industry whilst prices are depressed.

The need to redirect spend to other parts of the UK seems justified, given that the majority of the population growth is happening outside of the North.

Given money is precious, where do you propose to take from to give more to Scotland?

antrobus · 3 January 2017 at 12:15PM

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The fieldwork for that poll is weeks out of date. ....

So what? It's still the most recent poll, and simply confirms what previous polls have said.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...And very strangely, apart from the headline numbers very little detail released. No tables for the poll released as yet either ( showing Don't Knows etc ) and the last time round the company didn't even ask the independence question properly.

And very predictably, when faced with some inconvenient evidence, you simply dismiss with the usual waffle.:)

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...Orkney and Shetland.. sigh.. and back to 2011 we all go.....

Scotland sigh, and back to 1934 we all go.:rotfl:

If you can speculate on a hypothetical independent Scotland, I think other people are free to speculate on a hypothetical independent Orkneys, without you being snooty about it.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...And in any case, the oil is totally worthless to whoever has it surely ? So who cares.

You should. Unless You have the oil and it is worth $110 a barrel, you are going to have a hard time getting that deficit down.

TrickyTree83 · 3 January 2017 at 12:25PM

antrobus wrote: »

You should. Unless You have the oil and it is worth $110 a barrel, you are going to have a hard time getting that deficit down.

It'll be fine, there's plenty of snake oil in Scotland at the moment. Just need to figure out a way to refine it so that it can be put to good use.

elantan · 3 January 2017 at 12:29PM

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Hahaha :rotfl:

Next you'll be telling us how everyone down the local haunts is staunchly pro indy and how that's indicative of the whole of Scotland.

Nope ... but ask yourself this ... if you were a staunch yes or no voter and another indy ref came up would u make sure you voted ?

I don't imagine it will be as good a turn out as last time by any stretch of the imagination but people will turn out

elantan · 3 January 2017 at 12:33PM

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

If you care about something you get out and vote. That is why there was a 72 % turnout for the EU referendum overall in the UK (67.2% in Scotland, 62.7% in Northern Ireland, 75.7% in the East, 74.2% East Midlands, 69.7% in London, 69.3% in the North East, 70% in North West,76.8% in the South East, 76.7% in the South West, 71.7% in Wales, 72% in West Midlands and 70.7% in Yorkshire and The Humber.

Isn't it funny how the two that were shouting loudest after the EU referendum were the ones with the lowest turnout?

And then you get the independence referendum where 84.6% of scots registered turned out. And voted NO.

This proves if Scotland cares enough about something they get out and vote. There is a massive discrepancy between the independence vote and the EU vote. Sturgeon is trying desperately to link the vote to leave the EU to independance, but if Scotland cared as much as she seems to then surely the turnout for the EU referendum would have been as high as the independance referendum.

Tells you the No campaign better make sure they get all their no voters to turn up then if they want to remain in the UK and the yes voters better get the yes contingent out to vote if they are to get indy

I wasn't that bothered either way about the EU but I am happy my FM is fighting for the result chosen by the people of Scotland ... it is her job after all ... something I don't think either Ruth or Kez would do

TrickyTree83 · 3 January 2017 at 12:37PM

elantan wrote: »

Nope ... but ask yourself this ... if you were a staunch yes or no voter and another indy ref came up would u make sure you voted ?

I don't imagine it will be as good a turn out as last time by any stretch of the imagination but people will turn out

The turnout would be near the same as it was in 2014.

The risk to Scotland posed by the SNP and their collaborators is extremely grave. The 2nd indy ref will lose, simply because plain logic evidence and reason dictates this, and they'll be back to the drawing board trying to engineer yet another referendum.

Smearing the Conservatives will just push people to unify against the SNP, likely backing the Conservatives. You may well end up with a situation in Scotland where the Lib, Lab, Con parties will get to the point of forming Holyrood coalition governments to keep the SNP out, or the voters will rally behind one party to grant them a majority.

You're not making the argument for independence. Just complaining about this, that or the other.

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The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

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