Debate House Prices
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The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.
Comments
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Whenever I hear about hard borders between Scotland and England this movie always pops into my head..:DI don't have to. It was predicted in this lovely 1940s movie, with London reintegrated with mainland Europe and denied the harsh austerity of the rest of the country.
It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0 -
They do, but not as part of the UK. The politics are no longer compatible. Scotland as a whole don't like Tory policies pretty much in a nutshell for the last four or five decades. While both The Conservatives AND Labour have moved to the right, albeit with Labour recently and painfully trying to move back. The Scottish electorate still tend to vote overall for the same policies. It's just that in day to day politics, it's now the SNP who are offering them. Daniel Hannan's vision might be appealing, but he's an MEP. Not in charge of running a country.TrickyTree83 wrote: »Ah, it's good that we've done this. Right - so can you tell me what those conclusions were so I can understand why?
Because to me, my vision, the Daniel Hannan vision for the entire UK would make us all happier, wealthier, to undertake grand social programmes and generally do well. I'm curious what is it about the UK that precludes Scottish people from wanting to partake in such a vision?
Neither are many things such as the best use of Scotland's vast potentials for renewable projects and targets ( there's a reason the Scottish Greens are gagging for another referendum too ).
I don't think Scotland's full potential will ever be fully reached within the UK ( see 15bn deficit discussion ). Smaller countries are also far more light footed in terms of dealing with economic shocks than larger ones.The economic argument shows that Scotland will suffer, certainly in the medium term. Maybe not by the time you're drawing a pension, but will you even have a pension to draw? It's this desire for independence regardless of consequence that I simply cannot get my head around.
I voted to leave the EU because we're not reaching our full potential within it (Scotland included). If we can reach our full potential outside of the EU, why would Scotland opt out of the UK (which by all accounts is good economically for them) and why would it opt in to the EU back into a situation which strangles that potential?
Basically I reached the same conclusions as you did. Only a few years earlier and in terms of the UK not the EU. The SNP's slogan used to be 'independent within Europe'. We all know what we're getting on the tin voting for them. I wasn't 'sold' anything and I think Sturgeon and Salmond before her are two of the most straight talking politicians in the UK. Sturgeon said as soon as an EU ref was definitely on the cards in 2015 that if Scotland voted in, and rUK voted out that it might be a trigger for a second indy ref. And here we are today with a new draft bill out.It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0 -
I don't believe that smaller countries inevitably need to integrate strongly into larger political assemblies. I think that Scotland would be better off in EFTA than the EU, as would the UK. There aren't many state-plus-political unions left in Europe, apart from Germany where East Germany merged with West Germany. The fact that that country was deliberately split by outsiders in the first place hasn't escaped my notice.
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union all reverted to separate countries. I'm not sure that the UK will turn out to be much different in the long run, though having the UK's constituent countries cooperating like Benelux or the Nordic Council appeals to me immensely.
The idea that a country's media should be controlled by their neighbours or should unanimously champion their neighbour's interests is frankly ridiculous and the media representation of the Scottish indyref was a complete eyeopener for me. Like shakey, I'd have settled for DevoMax until then. I doubt that would be enough to hold the UK together in the long term.There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker0 -
I don't believe that smaller countries inevitably need to integrate strongly into larger political assemblies. I think that Scotland would be better off in EFTA than the EU, as would the UK. There aren't many state-plus-political unions left in Europe, apart from Germany where East Germany merged with West Germany. The fact that that country was deliberately split by outsiders in the first place hasn't escaped my notice.
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union all reverted to separate countries. I'm not sure that the UK will turn out to be much different in the long run, though having the UK's constituent countries cooperating like Benelux or the Nordic Council appeals to me immensely.
The idea that a country's media should be controlled by their neighbours or should unanimously champion their neighbour's interests is frankly ridiculous and the media representation of the Scottish indyref was a complete eyeopener for me. Like shakey, I'd have settled for DevoMax until then. I doubt that would be enough to hold the UK together in the long term.
Have to agree that if there's any sort of hesitation in the EU coming out very loud and proud for Scotland to remain as is in the EU before any second referendum vote. EFTA looks likely ( mostly because a lot of remain voters would be well p****d off ) to be pushed in a second referendum as a good if not better alternative. Would also calm the nerves of those who've swung from Yes to No on the basis of EU membership. I'm sure the SNP know this. Maybe why they're concentrating on the single market rather than the EU per se ?
Early days though. Lots of possibilities and need to see how Brexit and the EU go for a bit first.
Agree with the media take too. Was a big eyeopener for me too just posting here, reading the latest Salmond story with 10 posts under it all agreeing and backslapping, then going off to have a look into it and finding something completely different was true or at least everything wasn't as simple as what the story was making out. Boy I grew a thick skin posting here lol.It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0 -
The Tories have a mountain to climb to convince enlightened internationalist Scots that they aren't just the party of little Englanders, xenophobes, plutocrats, and bigots.
I'm not holding my breath.0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »The Tories have a mountain to climb to convince enlightened internationalist Scots that they aren't just the party of little Englanders, xenophobes, plutocrats, and bigots.
I'm not holding my breath.
You`ve obviously missed the burgeoning support for the Tories in Scotland, they're now the official oppostion to the SNP at Holyrood don`t you know.
Don`t let the facts get in the way of another of your racist anti-English rants though will you?
You and your ilk are the worst of us.“Britain- A friend to all, beholden to none”. 🇬🇧0 -
TrickyTree83 wrote: »I voted to leave the EU because we're not reaching our full potential within it
I voted to remain in the EU because being a full member of and completely within the single market and customs union has boosted the UK economy far in excess of what it otherwise would have been.
We have far exceeded what our full potential outside the single market can be, therefore if we leave it, the only way is down.
It is also the case that being in the EU has provided an additional layer of checks and balances to the worst excesses of national governments, enriched us socially and culturally, and enabled us to replace the missing millions of young people through free market immigration, so vital to our future and prosperity, without this being subject to the whims of populist/racist/xenophobic moves to restrict it.
Without significant inwards migration Scotland in particular faces an existential threat to our survival as a country.
The recent pandering to the ugly anti-immigration sentiments coming from the populist politicians in England is not just something most of us Scots find repugnant, and suspect is fundamentally driven by racism and xenophobia, it's also a threat to our very existence.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »I voted to remain in the EU because being a full member of and completely within the single market and customs union has boosted the UK economy far in excess of what it otherwise would have been.
We have far exceeded what our full potential outside the single market can be, therefore if we leave it, the only way is down.
It is also the case that being in the EU has provided an additional layer of checks and balances to the worst excesses of national governments, enriched us socially and culturally, and enabled us to replace the missing millions of young people through free market immigration without this activity, so vital to our future and prosperity, being subject to the whims of populist/racist/xenophobic moves to restrict it.
No problem with you being Pro-EU, but as usual you present personal conjecture as facts.“Britain- A friend to all, beholden to none”. 🇬🇧0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »The Tories have a mountain to climb to convince enlightened internationalist Scots that they aren't just the party of little Englanders, xenophobes, plutocrats, and bigots.
I'm not holding my breath.
You forgot blue rinse brigade, and stealers of the wealth from millenials.0 -
Shakethedisease wrote: »They do, but not as part of the UK. The politics are no longer compatible. Scotland as a whole don't like Tory policies pretty much in a nutshell for the last four or five decades. While both The Conservatives AND Labour have moved to the right, albeit with Labour recently and painfully trying to move back. The Scottish electorate still tend to vote overall for the same policies. It's just that in day to day politics, it's now the SNP who are offering them. Daniel Hannan's vision might be appealing, but he's an MEP. Not in charge of running a country.
But by making yourselves a poorer country in as far as the medium term, which I would assume would be a decade maybe more, the policies you as an electorate pursue will be unaffordable. Whilst I understand the political situation, becoming independent is not going to solve that particular problem because the economic situation isn't right.
The IFS report and GERS both point to an independent Scotland having to take a long hard ride on the austerity train to simply balance the books. All of the socialist policies you currently enjoy would be massively scaled back or disappear entirely during this time. So surely then the question must be (if socialist policies are the crux of the issue) in which scenario are we best placed to pursue socialist policies? It seems clear to me that the best course of action would be to wait, to rebalance trade away from rUK, to run a surplus and then to have a vote. So that the economic argument has already been won and people don't have to worry about welfare, tuition, healthcare or jobs when voting for or against independence.
Which brings me back to the timing of a new referendum on independence, throwing your lot in with the EU, being incorrect. And that the current state of affairs is the SNP using the EU vote as a lever for another referendum so soon after 2014 without having actually done any of the above regarding the economy of Scotland. Almost as if they don't worry about the economy of Scotland because the Treasury do that for them, handing out the money they're allowed to spend with no consequence.0
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