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    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 1st Feb 16, 12:38 AM
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    bouicca21
    Lasting power of attorney
    • #1
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:38 AM
    Lasting power of attorney 1st Feb 16 at 12:38 AM
    I can't find a more suitable board so I'm posting this here.

    I intend to make a lasting power of attorney for finances, naming my children (adults) jointly and severally for every decision. I think that means it is reasonably straightforward to do without a solicitor.

    I also broached the subject of doing an LPA for health. The children insist this is unnecessary, as they will be able to make any and all decisions as next of kin. Are they right?
Page 1
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 1st Feb 16, 3:11 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 16, 3:11 AM
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 16, 3:11 AM
    I don't know if they're right or not, but our solicitor said much the same to us about the health LPA. However there are two of us so atm one would speak for the other: if there's just one of you and multiple children it would be fine if they're all in agreement and you think they'd do what you wanted. If any of them have strong feelings which differ from the rest, I'd seriously consider the Health - which is also welfare, so you could include your wishes about eg going into a home rather than going to live with any of them (which would be my preference!)

    I mention the need for agreement: when my parents were in their final hospital stays, it was very helpful that we were all quite comfortable with the decisions we were being asked about. I felt quite sorry for the junior doctor who thought that they should reinsert the line which Dad had pulled out 12 hours earlier, so that they could restart antibiotics which had patently done him no good whatsoever in the previous week. United, my siblings make a strong force ... but I would not have wanted to be a lone voice had I disagreed with them.
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    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 1st Feb 16, 10:04 AM
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    securityguy
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 16, 10:04 AM
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 16, 10:04 AM
    "I also broached the subject of doing an LPA for health. The children insist this is unnecessary, as they will be able to make any and all decisions as next of kin. Are they right?"

    No, although there is a lot of wiggle-room for doctors to work with.

    Next of kin are consulted, but without a health POA there is a best interests test which overrides the next of kin. So if, for example, doctors want to give antibiotics to a patient with severe dementia whose children think wouldn't want to remain alive in that state, the doctors win.

    With a POA, the holder of the POA can refuse treatment on behalf of the patient as though they were the patient. The threshold for doctors being able to override that is much, much higher: you can refuse treatment up to the point at which you are sectioned (and courts are very reluctant to section and then order treatment solely on the basis of refusal) and the holder of a POA can refuse treatment on your behalf up to the point at which their behaviour is manifestly unreasonable and challengeable in a court.

    Nexts of kin have no power to refuse (or consent to) treatment; they are merely consulted as part of a best interests decision. People with a POA can act as the patient and refuse consent even if doctors feel that refusal is not in their best interests.

    In practice, the issue may not arise, however as an example...

    "I felt quite sorry for the junior doctor who thought that they should reinsert the line which Dad had pulled out 12 hours earlier, so that they could restart antibiotics which had patently done him no good whatsoever in the previous week. United, my siblings make a strong force"

    But a force with no legal power, had the doctor decided to ignore you. A POA removes the doubt: the holder of it could refuse treatment on your father's behalf. and the doctor would have no choice in the matter.
    Last edited by securityguy; 01-02-2016 at 10:09 AM.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 1st Feb 16, 12:08 PM
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    • #4
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:08 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:08 PM
    I agree, no legal power. And I admit I was very surprised when the solicitor advised that in their opinion we didn't need H&W LPAs as well as the financial ones we were drawing up - not least because they were effectively turning away business!

    To the OP, if you DO go for one, I suggest you give it quite a bit of thought. You can set out your wishes in some detail, eg that you do not wish to be resuscitated, that if you are in hospital with no prospect of returning to independent life that you do not want any extraordinary measures to be taken etc. Especially if these are not things you've discussed with family, or things that they disagree about - we'd all seen the effects of a devastating stroke on one of Mum's siblings, and all heard her say she would rather be dead than live like that, but some people find it very hard to let go.

    One of my friends is considering H&W LPA because he lives alone and has no family nearby. His struggle is to know who to appoint, but also how much detail to put in: he felt his father had been poorly advised and had put next to nothing in, which meant that his wishes were not clear.
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    • elsien
    • By elsien 1st Feb 16, 12:18 PM
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    • #5
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:18 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:18 PM
    Don't forget the health/welfare one isn't just about health it might also be about where you live should you no longer be able to stay at home.
    Again as next of kin, if there was no power of attorney in place, your family would be consulted as part of a best interests decision but being next of kin does not give them the legal power to make the final decision.

    There's a link of here for more information.
    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/money-matters/legal-issues/powers-of-attorney/power-of-attorney/
    Last edited by elsien; 01-02-2016 at 12:21 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

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    • goodwithsaving
    • By goodwithsaving 1st Feb 16, 12:44 PM
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    • #6
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:44 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Feb 16, 12:44 PM
    Go to your local Citizens advice. They may be able to guide you to do it without such high legal fees.
    Every time you borrow money, you’re robbing your future self. –Nathan W. Morris
    • jlew
    • By jlew 1st Feb 16, 2:38 PM
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    jlew
    • #7
    • 1st Feb 16, 2:38 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Feb 16, 2:38 PM
    I recently did LPA for my 94 year old Mother in Law. I did both the financial and health and have been surprised at the amount of times we have had to show the certificates to banks, social workers, the care home she now lives in. I think you should have both as things seem to be getting stricter as to when and for what these are needed for.

    My father was in residential care with vascular dementia, not too bad at first but eventually things went rapidly downhill. We didn't have any powers of attorney for him and a everyone accepted that and we were allowed to speak for him, but this was four years ago now and things seemed to have moved on a lot.

    This is why I sorted it for Mum in law. I used the forms online, it was very straight forward. Hassle but easy really and saved a lot not using a solicitor.
    • iolanthe07
    • By iolanthe07 12th Feb 16, 4:01 PM
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    iolanthe07
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 16, 4:01 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 16, 4:01 PM
    I did a Lasting Power of Attorney for my m-i-l. It only cost the lodging fee of £110 (IIRC), and was easy to do with forms downloaded. The forms are logical and simple enough, providing you follow the instructions. How solicitors can get away with charging, sometimes, £1000+ beats me.
    I used to think that good grammar is important, but now I know that good wine is importanter.
    • Brighton belle
    • By Brighton belle 12th Feb 16, 4:25 PM
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    Brighton belle
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 16, 4:25 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 16, 4:25 PM
    I did a Lasting Power of Attorney for my m-i-l. It only cost the lodging fee of £110 (IIRC), and was easy to do with forms downloaded. The forms are logical and simple enough, providing you follow the instructions. How solicitors can get away with charging, sometimes, £1000+ beats me.
    Originally posted by iolanthe07
    Because although they are straightforward, they are very time consuming. This includes writing to GP's etc and getting responses, and then chasing potentially several Attornies to sign their parts and the form being sent back and forth numerous times. £100+ an hour doesn't go far.
    (I'm not justifying it, just explaining it as it was explained to me by a solicitor.)
    I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 26th Jul 17, 7:49 AM
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    Primrose
    Just for anybody who is thinking of doing these P of A online themselves, they are fairly straightforward, but you do have to be careful to ensure everything is signed, witnessed and dated in the correct order.


    Also, if you are completing the forms whilst comparatively young and mentally fit so that you can file them away for the future, I would advise carefully noting any special wishes and instructions now while you are still able to be articulate about your wishes. it is worth spending the money to complete both the Financial Affairs and the Health & Welfare forms. With safeguarding and other legislation becoming ever more stringent it is worth having these powers articulated for the avoidance of doubt to make life easier for those who are looking after your affairs.


    We despatched our forms to the Office of Public Guardian on 1st June. There was a minor hiccup because despite our seeming care, one section had been signed in the wrong order and we were sent a replacement page to re-sign and date. We received notification that they had been registered on 24 July, so allow 6 - 8 weeks for the process to go through.
    • 88engine
    • By 88engine 11th Apr 18, 10:46 AM
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    88engine
    Lasting power of attorney
    Hi. I too am thinking of setting up a lasting power of attorney (LPA).

    I am signing up to a will-writing service through my work benefits and want to tag on the LPA as well.

    First thing I want to check regarding an LPA is the level of detail that can be included. Is that entirely up to me, or are you restricted at all? Essentially we have a 1 year old and property etc. We would like to give our parents LPA of both our child and finances in the event that both my wife and I were no longer mentally capable following an accident or anything. However, because they are parents, if we do not have an accident then they are likely to reach the point where THEY do not have mental capacity before us and therefore we would like the LPA to automatically change to our friends. Is this even possible to be written in? This might also be the case if we had an accident tomorrow and they took control of our child and finances, but then in 10 years time become incapable. We would like to write our preferences in for these situations. Is this possible?

    Second thing, the cost. To do just the LPA is going to cost in the region of £316, spread over the course of 12 months. That is for a double LPA for my wife and I for both health and finances. Is this cost the going rate / reasonable?
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 11th Apr 18, 11:15 AM
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    Primrose
    Firstly you want these LPAs to be in place for a long time and not to have the hassle and expense of continually updating them, so think for the long term.


    Include a contingency for all children, just in case you have more than one.


    To cater for the possibility of older parents being infirm or unable to act, you could appoint some replacement attorneys but my own preference would be against that route because once original attorneys become unable to act, even temporarily, the replacement attorneys have to take over and original attorneys are effectively replaced and then unable to act . An older parent who has a temporary illness or incapacity to act for a few months could be permanently prevented from operating by going this route.


    In my view it's much better to have more "prime" attorneys, all capable of acting jointly and severally. This allows any of them to act at any time, and effectively a couple of people who you view as "backups" still have the authority to act in a temporary emergency, without impacting on the authority of the people you regard as your prime attorneys.


    On the question of cost, I know it seems an expensive operation setting these up, but ask yourself "what price permanent peace of mind?" for the future. One hears of any number of people for whom sudden serious incapacity or illness has hit, thinking "it will never happen to me", and the lives of whole families have become a nightmare trying to then set up Office of Public Guardian arrangements which are more restrictive than Powers of Attorney, and take ages to set up. Take the financial hit, give every attorney a copy to keep safely in their files and hope they will never be needed. If something does subsequently unfortunately go wrong with your lives, it will be one of the best investments you could have made. It's very hard for relatives to deal with any institution these days on behalf of somebody else without being able to produce a registered Power of Attorney!
    Last edited by Primrose; 11-04-2018 at 11:18 AM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 11th Apr 18, 12:08 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    Hi. I too am thinking of setting up a lasting power of attorney (LPA).

    I am signing up to a will-writing service through my work benefits and want to tag on the LPA as well.

    First thing I want to check regarding an LPA is the level of detail that can be included. Is that entirely up to me, or are you restricted at all?

    You can add pages of excruciating detail if you want.

    Essentially we have a 1 year old and property etc. We would like to give our parents LPA of both our child and finances in the event that both my wife and I were no longer mentally capable following an accident or anything. However, because they are parents, if we do not have an accident then they are likely to reach the point where THEY do not have mental capacity before us and therefore we would like the LPA to automatically change to our friends. Is this even possible to be written in?

    Yes you can list substitute attorneys.

    This might also be the case if we had an accident tomorrow and they took control of our child and finances, but then in 10 years time become incapable. We would like to write our preferences in for these situations. Is this possible?

    Yep.

    Second thing, the cost. To do just the LPA is going to cost in the region of £316, spread over the course of 12 months. That is for a double LPA for my wife and I for both health and finances. Is this cost the going rate / reasonable?
    Originally posted by 88engine
    Is that the cost to do it before they add on the government fees? I'm guessing it is because the government fees are either £82 or £42 for each depending if you are earning so if it does include those fees it means the solicitor is either doing it for next to nothing or even less than nothing and Ive never come across a solicitor that does things on that basis

    Its actually quite easy to do yourself online but if the £316 includes the government fees I'd let them do it. If it doesn't, I'd say have a go at DIY you can always try and if it doesn't work out, abandon and hand it over to solicitors. I found it very easy the website leads you through the form. Try it this evening, its free to start, you only pay the fee when you register.
    • 88engine
    • By 88engine 11th Apr 18, 1:31 PM
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    88engine
    Is that the cost to do it before they add on the government fees? I'm guessing it is because the government fees are either £82 or £42 for each depending if you are earning so if it does include those fees it means the solicitor is either doing it for next to nothing or even less than nothing and Ive never come across a solicitor that does things on that basis

    Its actually quite easy to do yourself online but if the £316 includes the government fees I'd let them do it. If it doesn't, I'd say have a go at DIY you can always try and if it doesn't work out, abandon and hand it over to solicitors. I found it very easy the website leads you through the form. Try it this evening, its free to start, you only pay the fee when you register.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe

    Just looked at the fine print. Fees to the Office of the Public Guardian are extra...thanks for the heads up. I would have got a shock otherwise. I will take your advice and have a go myself. Is that £82 for a health LPA + another £82 for a finances LPA? And then my wife would need to do the same...so I would be looking at £82 x 4 = £328. To then pay a solicitor another £300+ seems madness.
    Last edited by 88engine; 11-04-2018 at 1:34 PM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 11th Apr 18, 2:10 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    Just looked at the fine print. Fees to the Office of the Public Guardian are extra...thanks for the heads up. I would have got a shock otherwise. I will take your advice and have a go myself. Is that £82 for a health LPA + another £82 for a finances LPA? And then my wife would need to do the same...so I would be looking at £82 x 4 = £328. To then pay a solicitor another £300+ seems madness.
    Originally posted by 88engine
    Yep you got it. Don't worry, my solicitor wanted £1200 to do all 4 so yours is a bargain !
    • 88engine
    • By 88engine 11th Apr 18, 3:06 PM
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    88engine
    Yep you got it. Don't worry, my solicitor wanted £1200 to do all 4 so yours is a bargain !
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Thanks again. After doing a bit of research I feel way more confident about doing my own will and LPA online now - I think it is fear of the unknown that means solicitors can probably get away with charging extortionate fees for doing them.

    £1,200 is utter madness. I was astounded at my £316, just doubling my outlay. It is discounted, as through my work benefits, but still ridiculous.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 11th Apr 18, 6:15 PM
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    silvercar
    MSE article on Lasting Power of Attorney can be found here.

    The main thread discussing it, which had some interesting points raised about the necessity or not of a health LPA can be found here.
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    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 11th Apr 18, 6:26 PM
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    sheramber
    A power of Attorney cease on your death so does not apply to anything happening after your death.

    You should appoint a guardian/s for your children in your will.
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 11th Apr 18, 6:34 PM
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    Primrose
    Thanks again. After doing a bit of research I feel way more confident about doing my own will and LPA online now - I think it is fear of the unknown that means solicitors can probably get away with charging extortionate fees for doing them.

    £1,200 is utter madness. I was astounded at my £316, just doubling my outlay. It is discounted, as through my work benefits, but still ridiculous.
    Originally posted by 88engine
    On the law of averages, your parents, because they are older than you, are more likely to need to have Powers of Attorney in place. Have they had them done, registered and copies given to their appointed representatives. These things can work both ways!
    .
    Last edited by Primrose; 11-04-2018 at 7:52 PM.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 11th Apr 18, 7:47 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    Thanks again. After doing a bit of research I feel way more confident about doing my own will and LPA online now - I think it is fear of the unknown that means solicitors can probably get away with charging extortionate fees for doing them.
    Originally posted by 88engine
    DIY LPA yes, unless you have a lot of complications (maybe take advice on how many pages of excruciating detail to add: our solicitor was of the view that we should trust our attorneys ... and also that we only needed finance at this stage).

    But DIY will? no, please, don't do it. Pay for advice to go through your own situation and work out what you want, pay for a professional solicitor, not a will-writing service - if this is what you get through work, then by all means use them to sound out questions but get the actual work done by a solicitor!
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