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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jun 15, 6:25 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 15, 6:25 AM
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks) 9th Jun 15 at 6:25 AM
    MSE Insert:

    We've seen some debate on this thread about the relevance of some posts to the topic.

    To ensure the thread remains on topic for forumites wanting to discuss the latest news we're asking that all posts contain a link to the news you're discussing.

    For the purposes of this thread the "news" needs to be within the last two weeks.

    Back to Martyn1981's original post.

    ---

    I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread for posting general news items that may be of interest.

    PV and the 'Solar in the news' thread attract a lot of interest, so here's a thread for all the other goings on.

    Mart.
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 09-10-2018 at 9:41 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 110
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jun 19, 9:07 AM
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    Martyn1981
    That 800lb economics gorilla is busy, busy, busy:

    Onshore wind farms in UK could cut £50 a year off energy bills

    A boom in new onshore wind projects could also cut energy bills by £50 a year compared to a high-gas energy mix according to new research commissioned by RenewableUK, the trade body.
    Onshore wind is expected to be cheaper than gas-generated electricity because of plummeting turbine technology costs and the rising cost of carbon emissions, according to the report.
    So on-shore wind is cheaper, popular, fast, job creative, so decision made then ....

    “It is simply economically illiterate not to go for onshore wind in a big way. The government should remove their barriers to onshore wind and engage communities to get it built,” he said.
    ...... ahhhh government v's economic literacy ...... now I see the problem.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jun 19, 9:14 AM
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    Martyn1981
    I'm not convinced, especially with the rise of Trump and others who are pushing a climate change denial program based on an argument that we pay more for Green energy, and who are gaining traction with this argument.

    I watched Cowspiracy last night and even environmentalist like Greenpeace are refusing to tackle the World's biggest polluter - the livestock industry - because of fear f losing corporate sponsorship and getting dragged through the courts by the huge meat industry lobby groups. Livestock farming and it's associated problem with water usage, pollution from their feces creating dead zones in lakes and seas, use of land for growing their feed, destruction of the rainforests to allow them graze is destroying the planet yet everyone conspires to ignore it.

    Instead we are shepherded to look at 'fixes' like installing renewables, when the main problem goes unchecked.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Yep, it's a mess, and fighting people like Trump will mean things take longer, and therefore the cost/impact will be worse, but we will win. Even in the US where Trump and his team are trying absolutely everything to prop up FF's, RE is winning out. And when Motor Trend puts a Tesla as the best medium sized sports sedan, it's game over for the ICE too.

    Regarding meat, I've kinda been looking forward to insect based 'meat'. But we may find that lab grown protein, and plant based products win out:

    Most 'meat' in 2040 will not come from dead animals, says report

    Almost half the world’s crops are fed to livestock, but only 15% of the plant calories end up being eaten by humans as meat. In contrast, the report says, cultured meat and vegan meat replacements retain about three-quarters of their input calories.
    But just to be clear, I'm not suggesting we aren't facing a near disaster, just that we will do the right thing (possibly for the wrong reasons) in time to reduce the disaster by a few percentile points.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jun 19, 9:58 AM
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    GreatApe
    No one will do anything. As we see in France when the Prez put a tax on diesel, people will get up in arms about anything that negatively impacts their lifestyle or increases taxes or bills. The earth is doomed because everyone is too selfish and self absorbed.

    Even people on here and other sustainable/green forums I subscribe to are all about the payback and not about the positive impact of installing green tech.

    I really find it all a bit disappointing
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    humanity and earth will be absolutely fine

    You shouldn't force your hobby and extreme views onto everyone its your hobby and interest not an actual crisis

    Plus there isn't much more to do for electricity its more or less solved with what has been built and what is under construction or committed to.

    The next stage is heating needs to be electrified and even the hobbyists like yourself and many others here will balk at the idea of paying 15p for mostly clean electric vs 4p for NG

    And not only will you need to pay for that differential but you will also need to pay for that differential to be affordable by 'the poor' so add another 1/3rd on top of that difference to cover your neighbors bill too

    Oh and you (directly via prices of goods/services) and indirectly via taxes (government bodies like the NHS/Schools) will also have to pay for this differential in the goods and services you buy to meet the other 2/3rds of heating that is not house heating
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Jun 19, 11:39 AM
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    zeupater
    ... Instead we are shepherded to look at 'fixes' like installing renewables, when the main problem goes unchecked.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Hi

    But even that isn't the main problem .... moving backwards towards the root cause we have a level where governments spend tomorrow's earnings up front and then encourage population growth & inflation to balance their position, then there's the root cause .... population size & growth ...

    If the future of humanity (not the planet as it will eventually recover!) is doomed then it's down to whoever replaces their own existence on more than a one-for-one basis ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 13th Jun 19, 12:10 PM
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    1961Nick
    Hi

    But even that isn't the main problem .... moving backwards towards the root cause we have a level where governments spend tomorrow's earnings up front and then encourage population growth & inflation to balance their position, then there's the root cause .... population size & growth ...

    If the future of humanity (not the planet as it will eventually recover!) is doomed then it's down to whoever replaces their own existence on more than a one-for-one basis ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    In the end, the planet may have to 'decide' enough is enough, and make the environment so inhospitable that further expansion is not possible....or even reduce the size of the human population.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jun 19, 1:08 PM
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    Martyn1981
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    It's already been addressed, and we seem to have reached peak child*. The problem is that the population will still grow considerably further due to the higher numbers of young simply living longer than before.

    *The population is roughly 7bn, with 2bn in the 0-15 age group, 2bn in the 16-30 age group, and 1bn in the next 3 age groups, 31-45, 46-60 & 61-75.

    The stability in the first two age groups will remain, however as the world population lives longer the world population will grow as those 2bn steadily move into each of the other age groups and a further 1bn make it intp the 76-90+ group. Total approx 11bn.

    The main drivers to control birth rate, was the expansion of education for young girls and women, both sexual education, and general education, since girls suffer the most from deprivation of education in the poorest communities. Whilst many countries, especially in parts of Asia still have higher birth rates than are sustainable, populations such as in the EU balance these out as they now have slightly negative birth rates.

    So the problem is clearly one of population growth, but just like AGW having a lag between CO2 levels and climate impacts, we now face the same problem of waiting for a relatively stable birth rate to finish impacting on population, mainly due to better health/medicine leading to longer life expectancies.

    To impact the future population total, and prevent us reaching 11bn, we would now have to implement negative birth rates (less than 2 and a bit per woman), but then we also have to consider the economy as it becomes top heavy with less young workers and more older retirees. No simple answer, but the natural adoption of western world slightly negative figures might be a very, very long term solution. Till then, it is what it is, and we have to adjust to cope with 11bn. Probably 11bn vegans!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 13th Jun 19, 1:38 PM
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    1961Nick
    ....... populations such as in the EU balance these out as they now have slightly negative birth rates.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?

    Probably 11bn vegans!
    Heaven help us!
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 13th Jun 19, 2:40 PM
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    silverwhistle
    As an ex-employee I've got a decent wedge of SSE shares, but I'm still pleased to see that they'll be closing Fiddler's Ferry coal fired power station next year as it can't compete with gas and RE.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Jun 19, 2:59 PM
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    zeupater
    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?


    Heaven help us!
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    Hi

    Last time I looked the overall continental population was rising at a fractional rate and this was mainly due to inward migration, however there was general internal population drift towards the west, particularly NW ...

    Obvious to say, the north westerly drift results from an economic pull factor, both personal improvement and national economic policy, which if controlled at destination would have considerable impact on various governments economic strategy on which past & current expenditure is based, for example Germany actively encouraged a rapid growth in inward migration to plug a predicted serious shortfall in manpower to support economic growth which has resulted in serious political pushback by much of their population ... the same happened in the UK over a longer period, the result of which is now pretty apparent to both population & politicians alike!

    As long as HM Treasury base expenditure on future economic growth & link economic growth on population expansion as opposed to driving productivity improvement there's little incentive for any government to restrict immigration to any serious degree, that's essentially why any stated targets are effectively meaningless ... improving productivity needs central strategy & investment whilst increasing population through inward migration just needs someone to encourage others to take their eye off the ball!

    Concerning CO2 emissions & the net zero announcement, following the counterpoint to the above, I suppose that a future government always has the option to meet it's target by encouraging many of us to move to more pleasing climates in our latter years, exporting our carbon footprint alongside other forms of policy-embarrassing product, such as recycling waste ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jun 19, 5:41 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    That has nothing to do with world population, that's just an issue of global population shifting. If I recall correctly Italy has, or had a massive problem, with a birth rate down in the 1.4's. Even with immigration, and higher birth rates among immigrants (taking the national average up into the 1.6's) they faced an economic disaster, and had to launch all sorts of programs to encourage people to have children.

    If you are concerned about EU population and migration, then you'll have to stop making excuses about tackling AGW, and get on with it, as economic migration and refugee's will boost our numbers massively as large parts of the warmer world become unliveable, or crops can't be grown reliably. Yet another cost of AGW, that makes the expense of tackling it, less than the cost of inaction ...... a simple decision for any true economist.

    There's no reason why we can't provide adequate energy for 11bn people whilst being carbon neutral. Food is a bigger problem, but I'm sure we'll manage with better programs, less land used to grow crops for meat production, and less food waste. But there is no choice, we're gonna hit 11bn, whether we like it or not, so whilst population is 'the problem' it's one we can't really tackle anymore than we currently have.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 13th Jun 19, 5:59 PM
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    pile-o-stone
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    In the end, the planet may have to 'decide' enough is enough, and make the environment so inhospitable that further expansion is not possible....or even reduce the size of the human population.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    Maybe we’ll have runaway global warming like Venus and end up with a dead planet.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
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    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jun 19, 7:19 PM
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    GreatApe
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    In the end, the planet may have to 'decide' enough is enough, and make the environment so inhospitable that further expansion is not possible....or even reduce the size of the human population.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick

    Yeeeeh... we didn't spend a million years evolving into the apex creatures to lye down and die

    Feel free to do that if it floats your boat but the rest of us are going to become masters of the galaxy. When you are long gone the children of men will be what guards this planet and its life from the true existential threat which is nature and chance not burning some carbon
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jun 19, 7:24 PM
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    GreatApe
    Till then, it is what it is, and we have to adjust to cope with 11bn. Probably 11bn vegans!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    So small minded a world you live in

    Humanity will go to trillions or to zero and fossil fuels will play no part in that path
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 13th Jun 19, 7:24 PM
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    EricMears
    Maybe we’ll have runaway global warming like Venus and end up with a dead planet.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Or of course Earth will survive it (as it has done on several previous occasions) with just a few mass extinctions (inc homo sapiens no doubt).
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jun 19, 7:28 PM
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    GreatApe
    Or of course Earth will survive it (as it has done on several previous occasions) with just a few mass extinctions (inc homo sapiens no doubt).
    Originally posted by EricMears

    If humans die then so does the rest of life (due to simple nature and chance which will eventually destroy all life on this planet) and it is quite likely humans are the only intelligent life in the galaxy and perhaps the universe

    We are the custodians of life for this planet without us the rest are doomed

    But dont worry, for every pessimist there is an optimist who will go out there create and conquer. Those posters here huddled up at home awaiting their own demise can continue doing that it wont make a difference, thankfully
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jun 19, 7:38 PM
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    GreatApe
    Maybe we’ll have runaway global warming like Venus and end up with a dead planet.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    To control the temperature downwards on earth is not beyond our capacity.

    I would wager with current technology and with less than 1% of earths GDP over a period of no more than a decade we could put into place system which could reduce the temperature so much as to induce an ice age

    We do not try to force the temp down because accepting mildly slowly increasing temperatures as a safeguard against runaway ice age

    But probably soon, we will have the ability to maintain any artificial temperature we choose at more or less zero 'cost' We will be able to do full and total geoengineering on this and other planets

    Given enough time the earth itself will be converted to a spaceship.
    It will look like earth today but it will be a spaceship first to move the orbit away from the expanding sun and ultimately to escape an exploding sun and find a home elsewhere or in deep space
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 13th Jun 19, 8:24 PM
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    1961Nick
    That has nothing to do with world population, that's just an issue of global population shifting.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Is it though...there are many areas of the planet that can only just sustain the existing population. Every person that migrates to the West, frees up a place in their homeland. That’s effectively an additional body not a “shifted” one.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Jun 19, 6:12 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Is it though...there are many areas of the planet that can only just sustain the existing population. Every person that migrates to the West, frees up a place in their homeland. That’s effectively an additional body not a “shifted” one.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    Nope. It's simply a folly to argue that, and a bit distasteful too. As AGW drives people out of areas, it's because the area can't cope with the pre-existing number of people. A 'space' would only be opened up if that area could cope with the number of people, and following some emigration now had spare capacity.

    Any chance we can stop raising excuses, and discuss green and ethical energy issues instead?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 14th Jun 19, 7:06 AM
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    1961Nick
    Nope. It's simply a folly to argue that, and a bit distasteful too. As AGW drives people out of areas, it's because the area can't cope with the pre-existing number of people. A 'space' would only be opened up if that area could cope with the number of people, and following some emigration now had spare capacity.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Exactly that...as soon as the circumstances that caused the migration subside... famine, war, climate etc, the homeland will 'backfill' until it reaches saturation point again.


    Any chance we can stop raising excuses, and discuss green and ethical energy issues instead?
    As distasteful as it may be to you, you can't exclude a rising human population from any discussion about AGW. If you want a global solution, you have to address global issues.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 14th Jun 19, 8:32 AM
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    pile-o-stone
    Exactly that...as soon as the circumstances that caused the migration subside... famine, war, climate etc, the homeland will 'backfill' until it reaches saturation point again.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    Totally agree. What's worse is where countries like India seem to be exporting their population problem rather than sort it out with education of women, birth control, etc.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
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