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  • FIRST POST
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 7:16 AM
    • 109Posts
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    BigAlC
    Vehicle Control Services Sheffield - Stage 4 - DR+ Letters
    • #1
    • 27th Apr 15, 7:16 AM
    Vehicle Control Services Sheffield - Stage 4 - DR+ Letters 27th Apr 15 at 7:16 AM
    Morning all,

    I've had a scan over the threads relating to IPC appeals, and have unfortunately received a PCN from VCS for parking in an "restricted area"

    As per the other thread regarding this location, the area cannot be upheld as a restricted area, and I appealed directly to VCS saying so, along with other reasons using the template letter applied here.

    Naturally it was rejected. So now I apparently have to go through the IPC appeal. The owner of a business I am friendly with doesn't have any owner rights to the land, so I cannot complain and get it cancelled.

    How can I attach a picture of the signage for info? Cannot get on to upload sites whilst in work.

    Please can I be advised on sensible next steps as it appears if I wish to contest this, that I will be in it for the long run.

    Many thanks,

    Al.
    Last edited by BigAlC; 14-08-2015 at 6:09 AM.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 27th Apr 15, 7:45 AM
    • 13,862 Posts
    • 14,349 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 27th Apr 15, 7:45 AM
    • #2
    • 27th Apr 15, 7:45 AM
    Appeal. As you will no doubt have read, the appeal service is somewhat less than Independent, being paid for by the PPC and finding for them about 80% of the time,

    If they refuse the appeal, as they are likely to, the Adjudicator, (who is usually anonymous), will probably err in law, or ask you to prove things which it is for the claimant to prove.

    With this in your hand, should it ever reach court, you can show it to a judge, who is then likely to find for you.

    However, as far as we are aware, no IAS appeal has ever seen the light of day in a courtroom. Strange that.

    There is also another aspect of IPC tickets, v.a.t. Did the PPC paperwork accout for vat? It should. More reading:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...7925&highlight=

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...7925&highlight=

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...3796&highlight=

    Ifyou ask for a vat compliant invoice and they refuse, shop'em.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...ng-tax-evasion
    Last edited by The Deep; 27-04-2015 at 7:48 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 11:54 AM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    • #3
    • 27th Apr 15, 11:54 AM
    • #3
    • 27th Apr 15, 11:54 AM
    Thanks for the reply.

    I'll need to look at the response I received from VCS regarding the VAT question. I can't remember seeing a full VAT breakdown though, but have checked my picture of the sign and they are VAT registered... not that I think that makes a difference.

    I will respond using snail mail and request a VAT invoice from them and see what happens.

    In the meantime, I assume it's just a case of going through the motions and cracking on writing the letter to the IPC, much the same format as the other one I sent to VCS asking for it to be cancelled.

    Any special considerations that might be recommended?

    Thanks again.

    Al
  • archived user
    • #4
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:11 PM
    • #4
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:11 PM
    Wrong thread
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 12:12 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    • #5
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:12 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:12 PM
    In addition to this, having read the newbie thread again, my pcn was attached to the side window on the car.

    In the newbie thread there is mention that I should receive a postal notice? Is this still the case given that I've appealed already and had a response?
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 12:55 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    • #6
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:55 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Apr 15, 12:55 PM


    For reference, a few of these are peppered throughout the car park. I'll put a few of the area parked in up later.
    • arthurx1234
    • By arthurx1234 27th Apr 15, 1:55 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 137 Thanks
    arthurx1234
    • #7
    • 27th Apr 15, 1:55 PM
    Sign Heights check
    • #7
    • 27th Apr 15, 1:55 PM


    For reference, a few of these are peppered throughout the car park. I'll put a few of the area parked in up later.
    Originally posted by BigAlC
    Are any of the signs, next to the pay machine above 6ft from the ground ?


    THE INDEPENDENT PARKING COMMITTEE ACCREDITED OPERATOR CODE OF PRACTICE
    PAGE 27
    "Where terms and conditions are provided on signs which are adjacent to Pay and Display machines, the signs must be at a suitable height it is suggested that no part of the sign which contains relevant text should be over 6ft, or under 12inches , from gound level."

    Hope this helps

    Arthur
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 1:59 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    • #8
    • 27th Apr 15, 1:59 PM
    • #8
    • 27th Apr 15, 1:59 PM
    Unfortunately it is a free to use car park up to 3 hours according to the sign.

    I will upload some pictures of the parking area that the car was situated later on. My arguement is that although the car was not parked within a marked bay, it was not parked in a restricted area. There are actually no markings for parking restrictions anywhere within the carpark.
    • arthurx1234
    • By arthurx1234 27th Apr 15, 2:12 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 137 Thanks
    arthurx1234
    • #9
    • 27th Apr 15, 2:12 PM
    • #9
    • 27th Apr 15, 2:12 PM
    BigALC

    You have to remember you are dealing with the lowest of the low and they will twist any arguement to their benefit ie see below an excerpt from my IAS appeal about poor signage

    "If there is a breach of the code this does not mean that the charge is no longer valid. For example, the sign may not comply with all the requirements of the code, but if it still provides sufficient notice, whilst in breach of the code, the charge would be legal."

    The more I read about these corrupt people the more determinded I and others I guess become, and so will not pay

    Arthur
    sorry about the grammar
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 3:21 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    Oh don't fear, I'm well aware of the type of people I'm dealing with.

    Like I say, this evening I will endeavour to upload a few more pictures of the actual area involved so that people can create a more informed opinion of next steps I could take. In the mean time I'm going to talk to one of the business owners on that land this evening to see what he has to say about it.

    Any and all advice is appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Al.
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 27th Apr 15, 6:52 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    I'll have a read through the response letter in a bit and see what the particular responses are.

    Cheers,
    Al
    Last edited by BigAlC; 20-08-2015 at 5:51 AM.
    • Boom Boom
    • By Boom Boom 27th Apr 15, 9:30 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Boom Boom


    For reference, a few of these are peppered throughout the car park. I'll put a few of the area parked in up later.
    Originally posted by BigAlC
    Any idea how to make the rules larger?
    • Boom Boom
    • By Boom Boom 27th Apr 15, 9:32 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Boom Boom
    Oh don't fear, I'm well aware of the type of people I'm dealing with.

    Like I say, this evening I will endeavour to upload a few more pictures of the actual area involved so that people can create a more informed opinion of next steps I could take. In the mean time I'm going to talk to one of the business owners on that land this evening to see what he has to say about it.

    Any and all advice is appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Al.
    Originally posted by BigAlC
    Let us know what he says. Aldi and Home Bargins just keep stating they are not the land owner blah blah blah
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 28th Apr 15, 6:19 AM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    Any idea how to make the rules larger?
    Originally posted by Boom Boom
    Not quite sure what you mean? If you mean the picture, then I imagine not. Sorry.

    As for the business owner, unfortunately none of them own any part of the land. They simply rent it, and despite him calling VCS to get tickets cancelled it is only the land owner that can authorise that. So a no go there.

    So, as for the pcn. It has been issued under a code 81. "Parked in a restricted area of a car park".

    As you can see from the pictures above, there is no signage to dictate that the area is restricted, neither on the floor markings or on posts. This alone makes this ticket null and void in my opinion but obviously they thought otherwise by responding on this point saying;
    "As per the statement made by our patrol officer, your vehicle was parked in a restricted area. Specifically, they stated, "not parked in a bay or space, parked in a service bay". The signs on site clearly state, "Park correctly and only between the lines of a single marked bay". It is not unreasonable to expect motorists to check signs in situ before leaving their vehicle.
    .
    I think they have caught themselves out there, as he says the patrol monkey has said one thing, and their own sign says another. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    It goes on to say;
    Your vehicle was not parked in a parking bay, and the signs on site indicate that any area that is not a parking bay may not be used for parking. Accordingly, this notice was issued correctly for a breach of the Terms and Conditions displayed on site and quoted above, and the charge will therefore stand. Whilst we appreciate what you have stated in your correspondance, we must advise you that it is the landower's decision whether or not to have lines warning motorists. As the signage in the car park is deemed as adequate, there is no need for lines warning motorists as well.
    Personally, I still think this is rubbish. Again though if anyone can enlighten me that would be wonderful.

    I also pulled up the charge amount and questioned its value, here is the response;

    We note your comments in relation to the amount of our PCN charges and we can confirm that they represent a sum for liquidated and ascertained damages in respect of a breach of the "parking contract". Those charges have been calculated in advance and were clearly set out on the signage. When a motorist parks in breach of the terms and conditions of parking, a loss is incurred by us as incorrect parking prevents the efficient management of the car park. If we are unable to regulate the car park, our clients would not require our services and the company would cease to exist. It is therefore justifiable that the operator seeks to enforce its terms and conditions.
    I will be sending another letter to them today, asking for a fully compliant VAT invoice to be sent to me with a breakdown of all charges applied to create the 100 charge. We shall see what they say.




    THE BIG ONE

    I have one question regarding if this makes it's way to court and I happen to lose. How much could I end up paying out? This could be a big driving factor for me.


    Cheers again for any and all help,

    Al.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 28th Apr 15, 6:45 AM
    • 13,862 Posts
    • 14,349 Thanks
    The Deep
    Round about 175 - 220 is the usual, but , if you lose at appeal, such are the defects in the IAS appeal system, that, If you put up a well reasoned legal argument the PPC is unlikely to take the claim to a court.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 28th Apr 15, 11:47 AM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    Thanks The Deep.

    It looks like I'll draft the appeal to the IAS and let people have a butchers to see if there is anything else I need to add, then send it with a witness statement from one of the business owners to help add some ammo.
    • Boom Boom
    • By Boom Boom 28th Apr 15, 6:33 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Boom Boom
    Not quite sure what you mean? If you mean the picture, then I imagine not. Sorry.

    As for the business owner, unfortunately none of them own any part of the land. They simply rent it, and despite him calling VCS to get tickets cancelled it is only the land owner that can authorise that. So a no go there.

    So, as for the pcn. It has been issued under a code 81. "Parked in a restricted area of a car park".

    As you can see from the pictures above, there is no signage to dictate that the area is restricted, neither on the floor markings or on posts. This alone makes this ticket null and void in my opinion but obviously they thought otherwise by responding on this point saying;


    I think they have caught themselves out there, as he says the patrol monkey has said one thing, and their own sign says another. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    It goes on to say;

    Personally, I still think this is rubbish. Again though if anyone can enlighten me that would be wonderful.

    I also pulled up the charge amount and questioned its value, here is the response;



    I will be sending another letter to them today, asking for a fully compliant VAT invoice to be sent to me with a breakdown of all charges applied to create the 100 charge. We shall see what they say.




    THE BIG ONE

    I have one question regarding if this makes it's way to court and I happen to lose. How much could I end up paying out? This could be a big driving factor for me.


    Cheers again for any and all help,

    Al.
    Originally posted by BigAlC
    Thanks for this. I wasn't sure whether to lodge an appeal or wait for something arriving in the post?

    I asked Aldi contact details for the land owner and they refused to give me this information saying they could not disclose, can't see why they would do this.
  • Klod
    If your pcn states contravention code 81 then that is in relation to parking in a restricted area. There are no indications that this is a restricted area. If they were going to get you for not parking in a marked bay then surely that should be indicated on your pcn? I' m no expert in this matter and I am currently dealing with a pcn in this area and I am of the same opinion as yourself. After reading your posting of their reply they seem to mention you did not park in a bay, code 24, but that is not what you have the ticket for. Do u see what I mean or is it just me?
    • Boom Boom
    • By Boom Boom 28th Apr 15, 7:35 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Boom Boom
    If your pcn states contravention code 81 then that is in relation to parking in a restricted area. There are no indications that this is a restricted area. If they were going to get you for not parking in a marked bay then surely that should be indicated on your pcn? I' m no expert in this matter and I am currently dealing with a pcn in this area and I am of the same opinion as yourself. After reading your posting of their reply they seem to mention you did not park in a bay, code 24, but that is not what you have the ticket for. Do u see what I mean or is it just me?
    Originally posted by Klod
    Yes, my ticket is marked the same.

    Should I an appeal be lodged straight away or should you wait to received something through the post - this is the bit I don't understand.
    • BigAlC
    • By BigAlC 29th Apr 15, 6:46 AM
    • 109 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    BigAlC
    Quick update, I'm just finalising the initial draft and would very much like a critical eye to be cast over it from one of the more legally adept members on here if possible.

    If at all possible, can someone clarify if what they say about the restricted area markings is true? I'm trying to find documentation but am struggling at the moment.

    Thanks,

    Al.
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