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  • FIRST POST
    • lajoux
    • By lajoux 23rd Feb 15, 12:31 PM
    • 119Posts
    • 858Thanks
    lajoux
    Family Building Society - Windfall Bond - is it fair?
    • #1
    • 23rd Feb 15, 12:31 PM
    Family Building Society - Windfall Bond - is it fair? 23rd Feb 15 at 12:31 PM
    Has anybody else noticed the anomalies in this product?
    We have just learned that the 10,000 'tickets' which go into the Draw each month are not necessarily purchased by investors. The first Draw had just 27 eligible tickets i.e. Bonds actually purchased.
    The second Draw had 680 eligible tickets. This seems to be
    poor odds i.e. 9,000+ unsold 'tickets' against just a few. Also, and not mentioned in the accompanying literature, the administration of the Bond and the Draw has been handed over to an insurance company, at a premium. As this Bond is not being widely marketed now, the chances of winning seem to be getting even more remote.
    Is this a win-win situation for the Society?

    Is this a fair product. or something else?
Page 1
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 23rd Feb 15, 12:51 PM
    • 12,738 Posts
    • 11,428 Thanks
    jimjames
    • #2
    • 23rd Feb 15, 12:51 PM
    • #2
    • 23rd Feb 15, 12:51 PM
    I can't see who administers the bond and draw has any impact on the fairness or otherwise.

    I certainly wouldn't choose a product purely based on being in a draw for a prize.
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • planteria
    • By planteria 23rd Feb 15, 3:32 PM
    • 5,023 Posts
    • 1,115 Thanks
    planteria
    • #3
    • 23rd Feb 15, 3:32 PM
    • #3
    • 23rd Feb 15, 3:32 PM
    this is via National Counties, is that right?
    i haven't invested in anything like this myself, other than Premium Bonds in the past. i guess it's just about the odds/chances of a payment. arguably, with rates so low, there is little opportunity cost.
    • patientperson
    • By patientperson 23rd Feb 15, 5:28 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 414 Thanks
    patientperson
    • #4
    • 23rd Feb 15, 5:28 PM
    • #4
    • 23rd Feb 15, 5:28 PM
    this is via National Counties, is that right?
    i haven't invested in anything like this myself, other than Premium Bonds in the past. i guess it's just about the odds/chances of a payment. arguably, with rates so low, there is little opportunity cost.
    Originally posted by planteria
    Yes planteria .. owned by NCBS.

    The windfall bond needs a 10,000 deposit for 0.5% interest.

    As the familiar Dragons Den saying goes .. 'I,m Out'.
    • planteria
    • By planteria 23rd Feb 15, 6:29 PM
    • 5,023 Posts
    • 1,115 Thanks
    planteria
    • #5
    • 23rd Feb 15, 6:29 PM
    • #5
    • 23rd Feb 15, 6:29 PM
    0.5%G Interest and a Prize Draw?
    or a prize draw that pays out on 0.5% on average?
    • lajoux
    • By lajoux 23rd Feb 15, 7:05 PM
    • 119 Posts
    • 858 Thanks
    lajoux
    • #6
    • 23rd Feb 15, 7:05 PM
    • #6
    • 23rd Feb 15, 7:05 PM
    Thanks for the comments. My main bone of contention is these 'ghost' tickets which are entered into the draw. If there is a raffle with a 1000 printed tickets and only 100 of them are sold then I'd feel I would have a really good chance of winning a prize. I would not expect the remaining 900 unsold tickets to be put into the hat.
    Or don't I understand how raffles are conducted?
    • colsten
    • By colsten 23rd Feb 15, 7:17 PM
    • 9,214 Posts
    • 8,046 Thanks
    colsten
    • #7
    • 23rd Feb 15, 7:17 PM
    • #7
    • 23rd Feb 15, 7:17 PM
    Is this a fair product. or something else?

    Or don't I understand how raffles are conducted?
    Originally posted by lajoux
    It's their raffle, they make the rules (which are published here).

    You don't have to participate if you don't like the rules.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 23rd Feb 15, 8:26 PM
    • 8,318 Posts
    • 10,670 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    • #8
    • 23rd Feb 15, 8:26 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Feb 15, 8:26 PM
    The prize pot is 80,000 a month. 960,000 a year. In addition to the 0.5% interest.

    10,000 x 10k bonds = 100m, making the prize pot worth 0.96% (tax free).

    If they haven't sold 10,000 bonds then maintaining the prize pot at 80k a month is financial suicide for them unless they enter the unsold bonds into the draw.

    For example, 680 bonds = 6.8m invested. If they pay 960k a year in prizes on these that equates to over 14% in interest. So all 10,000 bonds get entered and if an unsold one wins no prize is payable.

    It's statistically fair for the customer and financially sensible for the provider.

    I just don't find it a very appealing way to save 10,000. Santander 123 and buying lottery tickets with the interest would offer similar value with instant access and a slim chance of becoming very rich.
    Last edited by PeacefulWaters; 23-02-2015 at 8:30 PM.
    • planteria
    • By planteria 23rd Feb 15, 10:12 PM
    • 5,023 Posts
    • 1,115 Thanks
    planteria
    • #9
    • 23rd Feb 15, 10:12 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Feb 15, 10:12 PM
    ...It's statistically fair for the customer and financially sensible for the provider.

    I just don't find it a very appealing way to save 10,000. Santander 123 and buying lottery tickets with the interest would offer similar value with instant access and a slim chance of becoming very rich.
    Originally posted by PeacefulWaters
    sounds right to me. and NCBS can't really be criticised.. just, perhaps, having their Windfall Bond avoided.
    • lajoux
    • By lajoux 26th Feb 15, 11:20 AM
    • 119 Posts
    • 858 Thanks
    lajoux
    Thanks again for all the input. I still think it's misleading of them to state that 13 prizes will be given in every month's draw when all 13 could be allocated to the unsold Bonds. We shall be moving our investment somewhere else, not that there are many options left!
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 26th Feb 15, 12:32 PM
    • 12,738 Posts
    • 11,428 Thanks
    jimjames
    Thanks again for all the input. I still think it's misleading of them to state that 13 prizes will be given in every month's draw when all 13 could be allocated to the unsold Bonds. We shall be moving our investment somewhere else, not that there are many options left!
    Originally posted by lajoux
    Well for 10k you can get 3% at Santander if you don't already have the account.

    That's 6x as much interest per year.
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • gizz_mo
    • By gizz_mo 19th Aug 16, 9:56 AM
    • 102 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    gizz_mo
    1k winner
    I am happy to report that I am a 1,000 winner for this month - August. That's a 10% return on my 10k tax free as well as the Annual interest of 0.5% was paid on 1st August. I only invested in the bond 4 months ago after umming and ahhing about it for ages. I am tempted to increase my odds now by investing in a few more bonds, given that interest rates across the board are being reduced, opportunity cost is minimal and it has the full FSCS protection. Its more than I have ever won on Premium Bonds in which I have the full 50k invested.
    • darren72
    • By darren72 19th Aug 16, 11:15 AM
    • 1,223 Posts
    • 265 Thanks
    darren72
    Are wins with this tax free in the same way as Premium Bonds or are they taxable income ?

    Also, the interest rate on this is reducing to 0.25% from 1st September.
    Last edited by darren72; 19-08-2016 at 11:18 AM.
    • gizz_mo
    • By gizz_mo 19th Aug 16, 12:52 PM
    • 102 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    gizz_mo
    Yes, the prizes are tax free, but the interest of course is subject to your individual tax rates.
    I am aware the interest is going down to 0.25% on 1 Sep, but I still think its worth it for me, as the opportunity cost elsewhere is far outweighed if you win even the smallest prize of 1k.
    For my personal circumstances I will happily take the punt and forfeit the 0.75% additional interest or thereabouts i could get from an equiv easy access acct with 30 days notice.
    If the prize amounts or odds reduce then I might have to reconsider.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th Aug 16, 3:38 PM
    • 4,639 Posts
    • 7,415 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Apparently winnings are classed as lottery winnings and therefore tax free. I say apparently because the Society's own literature is very quiet on the subject - I am going by a couple of newspaper articles. And the investor's stake is not at risk (unlike the National Lottery).
    • Ums001
    • By Ums001 15th Dec 17, 2:19 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ums001
    I've had 3 bonds from the last 1.5years and havn't won anything.
    I asked Family Building Society to provide me with a list of all winners for 2017 and they refused.
    Not feeling happy about how things are going
    • Reaper
    • By Reaper 15th Dec 17, 2:30 PM
    • 6,299 Posts
    • 4,564 Thanks
    Reaper
    I've had 3 bonds from the last 1.5years and havn't won anything.
    Originally posted by Ums001
    Why would you expect to? There are only 12 prizes each month and 10,000 tickets.
    I asked Family Building Society to provide me with a list of all winners for 2017 and they refused.
    Not feeling happy about how things are going
    On this point you are on firmer ground. Their T&C say:
    21. A list of winners will be available 4 weeks after each monthly draw takes place, by sending a stamped addressed envelope to Family Building Society, Windfall Bond Monthly Free Draw Prize List, Ebbisham House, 30 Church Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT17 4NL.


    Follow the rules and they have to tell you. But don't be surprised when you find out prizes are hardly ever paid out. See the rest of this thread to understand why.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 15th Dec 17, 2:35 PM
    • 4,639 Posts
    • 7,415 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I've had 3 bonds from the last 1.5years and havn't won anything.
    I asked Family Building Society to provide me with a list of all winners for 2017 and they refused.
    Not feeling happy about how things are going
    Originally posted by Ums001
    If not winning makes you angry then you shouldn't be playing lotteries and should put your money in an account which will pay you interest instead.

    Gamblers and bookies keep telling me that gambling is supposed to be fun.
    • Yvette394
    • By Yvette394 16th Apr 18, 8:12 PM
    • 416 Posts
    • 1,164 Thanks
    Yvette394
    Has anyone won anything recently? I have two bonds and didn't realise they entered unsold tickets. Did wondered why some months there are very few names on the winners list. Whilst one guy has won as least two years or three times in the last year. Will keep keeping my fingers crossed!
    Sept - Baby Swaddle/growbag bundle, Kindle Oasis, Lego Campervan

    Wins 2013 3996, 2014 1125, 2015 2906, 2016 3058 2017 1025 2018 495
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