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  • FIRST POST
    pragmaticus
    PE PCN Appeal help - 'free' car park overstay
    • #1
    • 18th Jun 14, 5:32 AM
    PE PCN Appeal help - 'free' car park overstay 18th Jun 14 at 5:32 AM
    Hi,

    I really need some help rebutting a pcn from Parking Eye please as I've never had one before. I've researched a bit here but admit I got a bit lost in all the various arguments and am concerned about the appeal. The circumstances are...

    The Driver overstayed 20 minutes in a 2hr free parking retail park recently, as they were browsing the shops with good reason, unaware of the restrictions. This being due to craftily positioned signing and unfamiliarity with the car park. Thus the driver does not recognise that they knowingly entered into any contract with PE anyway.

    The driver stayed on site throughout the entire 2hr 20mins and bought goods from retailers to a decent value. More than 30. The car park was not remotely near full and it was not a peak retail period such as a weekend.

    The PCN is a postal ANPR one with little pictures of my car entering and leaving the park. It appears to look superficially similar to a proper police or council fine but this word is not mentioned and it quotes all the bluff to try and justify sending it to me as RK.

    They demand 100 (reduced to 60 if paid within a few days) for the 20 minute overstay. Clearly extortionate!

    As the RK I have objected against this civil invoice via PE's online system, not declaring the ID of the driver but with edited proof of purchase from the retail park on the date in question. I pointed out the fact the driver was unaware of any signage or contract and in any case rebutting any actual loss to the owners by the overstay and objecting to the excessive charge amount requested.

    Having read the forums I expect an appeal rejection, so my question is this....

    What are my strongest arguments to submit to POPLA in these specific circumstances and how should I succinctly present them?

    This incident was in England in early June 2014. I am being vague with location and time as I know these companies trawl this site and seek to identify appellants in later court cases.
    Last edited by pragmaticus; 18-06-2014 at 5:37 AM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Jun 14, 7:25 AM
    • 22,783 Posts
    • 28,990 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 14, 7:25 AM
    • #2
    • 18th Jun 14, 7:25 AM
    Hi,

    I really need some help rebutting a pcn from Parking Eye please as I've never had one before. I've researched a bit here but admit I got a bit lost in all the various arguments and am concerned about the appeal. The circumstances are...

    The Driver overstayed 20 minutes in a 2hr free parking retail park recently, as they were browsing the shops with good reason, unaware of the restrictions. This being due to craftily positioned signing and unfamiliarity with the car park. Thus the driver does not recognise that they knowingly entered into any contract with PE anyway.

    The driver stayed on site throughout the entire 2hr 20mins and bought goods from retailers to a decent value. More than 30. The car park was not remotely near full and it was not a peak retail period such as a weekend.

    The PCN is a postal ANPR one with little pictures of my car entering and leaving the park. It appears to look superficially similar to a proper police or council fine but this word is not mentioned and it quotes all the bluff to try and justify sending it to me as RK.

    They demand 100 (reduced to 60 if paid within a few days) for the 20 minute overstay. Clearly extortionate!

    As the RK I have objected against this civil invoice via PE's online system, not declaring the ID of the driver but with edited proof of purchase from the retail park on the date in question. I pointed out the fact the driver was unaware of any signage or contract and in any case rebutting any actual loss to the owners by the overstay and objecting to the excessive charge amount requested.

    Having read the forums I expect an appeal rejection, so my question is this....

    What are my strongest arguments to submit to POPLA in these specific circumstances and how should I succinctly present them?

    This incident was in England in early June 2014. I am being vague with location and time as I know these companies trawl this site and seek to identify appellants in later court cases.
    Originally posted by pragmaticus
    by parking on private land where there will be signage they have entered into a contract (knowingly or not) although "with who" is not always clear, but in this case PE would say with them (only a court of law would decide this once a contract has been produced)

    the emptiness of the car park and the day or date are irrelevant , its private land and you are only invited to park subject to the rules of the car park, as agreed with the landowner (its the landowners land so they can decide the "rules")

    the pictures will be anpr pictures taken in such a way as to record the registration plate (details in parking pranksters blogs)

    yes their fees are extortionate and maybe unjustified and not enforceable in law (again only a court case could actually decide)

    the appeal template letter in the NEWBIES sticky thread at the top of this forum tells you the grounds for appeal , both for the PPC and for POPLA too , as a skeleton "defence"

    copies of receipts for the day in question should have been presented with this PPC appeal as they often cancel the ticket if the spend is high enough , especially as this landowner suffered no loss as its a free car park

    the links via post #32 of that NEWBIES sticky thread show you examples of appeals that are for popla , including the grounds for a popla appeal , usually containing between 4 and 8 legal grounds for appeal

    in fact that is the only thread you need to read, and any threads linked by it that are similar to your case , like PE appeals to popla etc

    using the search tool on this forum will also yield results similar to your case, providing you use the correct word or words

    complaints should also have been filed with the landowner and retailers , again to get the charge cancelled asap

    good luck
    Last edited by Redx; 18-06-2014 at 7:28 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • pragmaticus
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 14, 9:11 AM
    PE appeal
    • #3
    • 18th Jun 14, 9:11 AM
    Thanks! I'll come up with something and submit it for peer review!
  • pragmaticus
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 14, 11:56 AM
    • #4
    • 18th Jun 14, 11:56 AM
    ....but don't some of the issues I raised in my opening post constitute grounds for appeal to POPLA, as opposed to what a court might decide or mitigation per se? I.e No contract in place, Unfair terms etc? Perhaps just need to word them correctly - so will view the examples.

    Clearly I did not have the necessary mens rea to create a breach as I had no idea a PCN contract was in place. However, I now see that the strongest appeal ground in my case may be no evidence of a genuine loss and they have no way of demonstrating an initial loss in a free car park, or way of properly establishing that any contract existed -as per Parking Eye Vs Green (2014).

    Those points plus the usual about no right to charge on behalf of landowner, inadequate signage and ANPR issues....

    I'll cobble something together from the various bits of advice and post it up for comment, pending an almost inevitable failure of the 'soft' appeal to Parking Eye. I want something decent to put to POPLA.

    One question... Is quoting all the case law verbatim needed or can I abridge it and refer simply to cases such as "X v Y at **** Court on *** date"? I have a tendency to rattle on as it is and don't want my points to get lost in legal waffle.

    Interesting to see nearly every post this morning is about this company! Have they had a job lot on PCN's this month?

    I'm off to get pictures of the signage now, just in case I ever need them.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Jun 14, 12:13 PM
    • 22,783 Posts
    • 28,990 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 14, 12:13 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Jun 14, 12:13 PM
    appeals based on the law etc are fine , including not a gpeol , no contract and poor signage , anpr , whatever , so always include as many as possible

    as detailed on the popla website, mitigation is never considered but add it to your appeal if you wish , writing in the 3rd party , not the first person most people do , but only in addition to the main appeal points

    the popla assessor will not take any mitigation into account , so its really only there as evidence you mentioned it if it ever goes to court

    also reference and use as much legal info as you can , the idea being to defend your case , even to popla , with their own history of previous appeal judgments as well as legal ones

    PE are one of the biggest PPC`s in the uk , so yes they feature heavily on here and pepipoo and cag

    in this case , less is not more !
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • pragmaticus
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 14, 2:56 PM
    Thankd Redx
    • #6
    • 18th Jun 14, 2:56 PM
    Redx,

    I took your earlier advice and whilst taking photos of the half hidden or placed 7ft high signage I popped into the retail outlets and spoke to a Customer Service Manager. He took one look at the PCN and viewed the bank statement confirming purchases on the date in question and went off immediately to send a cancellation email to Parking Eye! Hopefully this has been done and I will get a cancellation notice soon. I got his name and recorded what time I was there just in case but the manager seemed familiar with the process and was very supportive. I will keep the POPLA prep on the back burner in case the matter rumbles on but I hope it won't.

    Just goes to prove a bit of old fashioned face to face diplomacy can and does still work.

    I'd advise anyone else with similar circumstances to go to the retail management first based on this apparent success.

    Thanks again!
    • Dee140157
    • By Dee140157 18th Jun 14, 4:33 PM
    • 2,852 Posts
    • 7,796 Thanks
    Dee140157
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 14, 4:33 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Jun 14, 4:33 PM
    Another post showing again that the good old fashioned idea of complaining to the shop/hotel/land owner often is the easiest route to take.
    Newbie thread: go to the top of this page and find these words: Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Click on words Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking. Newbie thread is the first post. Blue New Thread button is just above it to left.
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