IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including QR codes, number plates and reference numbers.

PCNs outside my own home.

Options
born_3
born_3 Posts: 59 Forumite
edited 28 April 2014 at 10:51AM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
During the very wet weather in early Spring, my car received 4 (5?) PCNs in the space of a week, as it was parked in my designated space without displaying a permit (it "fell off" due to the exceptionally damp/humid weather). Now UKPC accepted this for the first of the PCNs. The next they didn't (and I'm getting the threatograms for this) as I didn't mention POPLA in the letter of mitigation. The next three I did request a POPLA code, I appealed and I have just received their decision.

Here's my POPLA appeal ripping off something Daisy suggested:

<START>
"...POPLA appeal (XXX) regarding UKPC Ref No. XXX

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle (XXX) and this is my appeal summarised below. I am not liable for the parking charge and the vehicle was not improperly parked. As such, the parking 'charge' notice (PCN) exceeded the appropriate amount and is unenforceable.!

PERMIT HOLDER
As I am in possession of a UKPC issued permit to park my car, in my designated parking bay in front of my home I contend that UKPC has no right to issue a PCN. Due to the exceptionally wet /humid weather we were experiencing at the time of the alleged infringement, the adhesive securing my permit to the failed and the permit had fallen to the floor of my vehicle. I have supplied evidence to UKPC that I have the right to park in my parking bay.

UNCLEAR, NON-COMPLIANT AND LACK OF SIGNAGE
Due to their high position and the barely legible size of the small print, the signs in this car park are very hard to read and understand. I also contend that as there is no signage above my parking pays as they are elsewhere on our road and thus, the inference is that UKPC's terms are not applicable to my bays outside my house. Also the other signs (at the start of !!!! Street) and any core parking terms UKPC are relying upon are too small for the driver to discern when driving in and that the signs around the car park also fail to comply with the BPA Code of Practice requirements. I request that POPLA should check the Operator's evidence and signage map/photos on this point. I contend that the signs for our street (wording, position, and clarity) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach (as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011).!

CONTRACT WITH THE LANDOWNER - NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE AND NO LEGAL STATUS TO OFFER PARKING OR ENFORCE TICKETS
UKPC do not own this car park and are acting merely as agents for the owner/occupier.!

In their notices and in the rejection letter for my original appeal, UKPC has not provided me with any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver, since they do not own nor have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question. I do not believe that the operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed to allege a breach of contract (as evidenced in the Higher Court findings in VCS v HMRC 2012). I require POPLA to check whether UKPC have provided a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed & dated site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier (not just a signed pre-printed slip of paper saying it exists) and check that it specifically enables UKPC to pursue parking charges in the courts, and whether that contract is compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice.


NON-EXISTANT ADDRESS
The PCN issued by UKPC to me was issued at my abode: XX !!!! Street (nb my home's number is clearly marked as is the street name). But the PCN details the location as “Pooh Road...” which does not relate to a legal, valid address. Thus, I contend that the PCN is unenforceable as it details a non-existant (after checking with the Post Office) address.!


BPA CODE OF PRACTICE BREACH - NO 'CREDITOR' IDENTIFIED
The PCN I have received makes it clear that UKPC is relying on Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As such, there must be strict compliance with all of its requirements in order to take advantage of the rights granted under that Act to pursue the registered keeper in respect of a driver’s alleged 'charge'. UKPC has failed to comply in the wording of their Notice to Keeper since they have failed to identify the “Creditor”. This may, in law, be UKPC or indeed some other party. The Act requires a Notice to Keeper to have words to the effect that “The Creditor is….”!

The wording of Paragraph 9(2)(h) of Schedule 4 of the Act does not indicate that the “creditor must be named, but “identified”. The driver is entitled to know the identity of the party with whom he has allegedly contracted and in failing to specifically identify the “Creditor”, UKPC has failed to provide any evidence that it, or a third party, is entitled to enforce an alleged breach of contractual terms and conditions.



NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS
UKPC are clearly attempting to enforce this charge under paragraph B 19.5 of the BPA Code of Practice and must be required to validate this argument by providing POPLA with a detailed financial appraisal which evidences the genuine pre-estimated amount of loss or damages in this particular episode where my car was parked in my designated car parking spot in front of my house for this particular 'contravention'.!

Since it is my own 'free' car parking space (I have two) with UKPC receiving no other income than these 'charges' then UKPC cannot possibly expect POPLA or me to believe that they are operating at a permanent loss at this site. I contend there has been no!pre-estimate!(prior!to starting to 'charge for breaches' at this site) prepared or considered in advance. Thus, there can have been no loss arising from this non-event. Neither can UKPC lawfully include their operational day-to-day business running costs (such as costs for signage, operators wages and uniforms etc.) in any 'loss' claimed.!

Also, it is assumed that any financial 'loss' incurred by UKPC caused by my permit becoming detached from the vehicle's windscreen would remain constant. As UKPC have demanded £60 (or £100 if payment is not received within 35 days) and a final discounted rate of £15 (unless I appeal to POPLA or fail to pay within 35 days) I believe that this is evidence that the 'charge' is not related to UKPC's 'loss' and is in effect a revenue-raising scheme which negates the PCN as this can only relate to recuperation of losses incurred by UKPC.


UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE
Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged, this 'charge' can only be an unlawful attempt at dressing up a penalty to impersonate a parking ticket, as was found in the case of Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008) also OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), in Parking Eye v Smith (Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012).!

This transparently punitive charge by UKPC is a revenue-raising exercise and is therefore unenforceable in law. UKPC's own website is damning in this regard:

http://www.ukparkingcontrol.com/faq.html

From UKPC website June 2013:!
''frequently asked questions
How much would it cost us to use your parking management services?!Nothing at all! We provide parking management services to our clients free of charge (subject to site survey).
So how do you earn your money?!
Our revenue is generated from the parking charges issued.!In many instances we are also able to provide a client revenue!rebate of 10%.''


So in conclusion, this is (by their own admission on the Operator's own website!) a revenue-raising scheme disguised as a 'parking ticket' - so in fact it is an unenforceable penalty.

I respectfully request that this appeal be allowed."
<END>

Now I have just received POPLA's decision:

<START>
"...born_3 (Appellant)
-v-
UK Parking Control Limited (Operator)

The Operator issued parking charge notice number XXX
arising out of the presence at Pooh Street on January XX
2014, of a vehicle with registration mark XXX.

The Appellant appealed against liability for the parking charge.

The Assessor has considered the evidence of both parties and has
determined that the appeal be allowed.

The Assessor’s reasons are as set out.

The Operator should now cancel the parking charge notice forthwith.

Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination

At XXXX, on January XX 2014, a parking operative observed the Appellant’s vehicle parked at Pooh Street.

The Operator’s case is that the Appellant breached the car parking
conditions by parking in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

The Appellant made representations stating his case. One of the points raised by the Appellant was that the charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

The parking charge appears to be a sum sought for liquidated damages, in other words, compensation agreed in advance. Accordingly, the charge must represent a genuine pre-estimate of the loss any breach may cause. The estimate must be based upon loss flowing from a breach of the parking terms.

The Operator has submitted a breakdown of their genuine pre-estimate of loss. The estimate must be based upon loss flowing from a breach of the parking terms. The Operator cannot include in its pre-estimate of loss costs which are not in fact contractual losses, but the costs of running its business and which would have been incurred irrespective of the Appellant’s conduct. The list submitted by the Operator does not appear to be directly
related to the Appellant’s breach on this occasion and as there are no figures, it is difficult to ascertain what costs were incurred by the Operator.

Consequently, I cannot decide that the Operator has shown that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

I need not decide any other issues.

Accordingly, the appeal is allowed..."
<END>

I find it interesting that POPLA still maintain that the PCN was issued at a non-existent address.

But what should I do about the 'threatogram' - ignore it all the way to the threats of court action or nip it in the bud?
«134

Comments

  • AoD
    AoD Posts: 170 Forumite
    Options
    So the first was cancelled, the 2nd you didn't get a POPLA code but the 3rd, 4th and 5th you did?

    Someone will be along to go through your POPLA appeal, but for the 2nd one, you do not need to ask / beg for POPLA code. The PPC MUST provide when if they reject your appeal. What did their rejection letter actually say?
  • bod1467
    bod1467 Posts: 15,214 Forumite
    Options
    The appeal doesn't need reviewed - it has already won. ;)

    OP - revert to UKPC and demand a POPLA code for the 2nd "ticket". You appealed, they rejected, they MUST issue a POPLA code if rejecting an appeal.

    Complain also to BPA and DVLA (contact info in the NEWBIES thread) about UKPC's breach of the BPA code of practice.

    Note: an appeal does not have to use the words appeal or challenge; a challenge simply needs to be made. UKPC may try to hoodwink you saying that you didn't appeal; this is utter bollox.

    PS - the alternative is to simply ignore them and file the threatograms. UKPC have not as yet done court (except where they have been sued - and lost. One such case was very similar to yours).
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,350 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Options
    vehicle parked at Pooh Street.

    Are they for real? I wonder whether POPLA is using a standard template and 'Pooh Street' is a bit like 'Joe Bloggs' where they should be putting in the real detail? Or is it something that the PPC put into their submission?

    You need to get POPLA codes for each PCN issued and appeal each one to POPLA.

    UKPC haven't 'done court' to date, and with the ParkingEye Cambridge case hanging over things, they won't be in a hurry to do so in the near future, I would guess.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • AoD
    AoD Posts: 170 Forumite
    Options
    bod1467 wrote: »
    The appeal doesn't need reviewed - it has already won. ;)

    Serves me right for skim reading ... guess we have all done that!!
  • born_3
    born_3 Posts: 59 Forumite
    Options
    AoD wrote: »
    So the first was cancelled, the 2nd you didn't get a POPLA code but the 3rd, 4th and 5th you did... What did their rejection letter actually say?

    Just gone through the paperwork. It's just(!) 4 tickets. No 1 is the first I challenged with them, I was asked to send evidence that I have permits which I did. I then received "...a goodwill offer to settle for...£15". This is the one where none of my correspondence mentioned POPLA and I'm receiving the threatograms for. I was supposed to write to UKPC saying that I can't write an acknowledgement to their threatograms until I had heard from POPLA about my other appeals - I forgot/couldn't be bothered to do this.

    The other three went to POPLA using the same appeal letter - I do mention that I was "offered" the £15 reduced rate, which I declined.

    I'm very interested in "cons" - particularly the area of "passing off". Now these PPCs pass themselves off as legitimate companies with legitimate "tickets" and legitimate legal threats. You can appeal to the "legitimate" appeals organisation POPLA that has the very legitimate email address of XX@londoncouncils.org.uk (although in their reply it becomes XX@popla.org.uk. These are commercial organisations that shouldn't be using the org suffix - I thought it was for charities and NPOs?

    As all of my PCNs detail a completely fictitious address, I was very surprised to see this echoed in the POPLA appeal.

    The trouble is, I think I'm walking on very thin ice. Why? - I live in a commuter town, virtually all of its industry has gone so the council looks at expanding retail to keep it from going under as a dormitory town. Our town's high street is dying and one of the reasons is because of the council's draconian parking legislation to try and control these commuters. The couple of retail developments in the town have PPC's which, in addition to making a buck, are also there to try and do something about the commuters (we're on a main line direct to London). If I go about publicising how I've won my appeal (which I'm assuming can be applied to every single PCN issued) what this just cause just mre commuter parking?
  • AoD
    AoD Posts: 170 Forumite
    Options
    OK, but none of that changes the advice re the 2nd "ticket". Write to the PPC and demand a POPLA code. Complain to the BPA and DVLA.

    Re the .org address, it was originally created for non-profit organisations, but it is now used by anyone.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,683 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    Options
    Loads of people get the £15 'offer' (LOL!). Decline it and ask for a POPLA code - you DID NOT have to ask in your appeal, they were supposed to offer it.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • born_3
    born_3 Posts: 59 Forumite
    Options
    I don't know if it's bad form to bump ones own postings, but I've just had my second POPLA decision:

    <START>
    "...Born_3 (Appellant)
    -v-
    UK Parking Control Limited (Operator)

    The Operator issued parking charge notice number XXX
    arising out of a presence on private land, of a vehicle with registration
    mark XXX.

    The Appellant appealed against liability for the parking charge.

    The Assessor has considered the evidence of both parties and has
    determined that the appeal be allowed.

    The Assessor’s reasons are as set out.

    The Operator should now cancel the parking charge notice forthwith.

    Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination

    It is the Appellant’s case that the parking charge notice was issued
    incorrectly.

    The Operator has not produced a copy of the parking charge notice, nor any evidence to show a breach of the conditions of parking occurred, nor any evidence that shows what the conditions of parking, in fact, were.

    Accordingly I have no option but to allow the appeal..."

    <END>
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,350 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Options
    Well done you!

    £27 - kerching, kerching, bah-bling, bah-bling, that's the price tag!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • born_3
    born_3 Posts: 59 Forumite
    Options
    bod1467 wrote: »
    ... the alternative is to simply ignore them and file the threatograms. UKPC have not as yet done court (except where they have been sued - and lost. One such case was very similar to yours).

    I've just had a re-think and I think I will try the POPLA route for the first "ticket" - it definitely costs them £27 - right?
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.1K Life & Family
  • 247.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards