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  • FIRST POST
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 8th Mar 14, 6:36 PM
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    outofmoney
    Ticket help
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:36 PM
    Ticket help 8th Mar 14 at 6:36 PM
    I know there are 101 posts here and I have tried reading the FAQ but ended totally confused.

    We parked in a car Park last week that we always have done. But have now received a 'fine'. It turns out they have changed it from 1 and a half hours to 1 hour.

    We have two disabled sons and one has a blue badge but it was issued a few days after the date we parked.

    The advice has always been ignore, but seems this is no longer the case. I was not the driver, but am the registered keeper.

    So should I write a letter of appeal? And could I mention the Blue Badge?
Page 1
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
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    Guys Dad
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
    Please read the NEWBIES sticky at the top of the forum.

    It took a lot of time and experience to write and lots of people have used its advice successfully. Just read it carefully, come back with what you think you should do and we will help, but we have not the time to do groundhog day for every new thread when the answer is nearly always the same.
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
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    da_rule
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:40 PM
    Have you received a Notice to Keeper (i.e. a letter through the post asking you to name the driver)?

    If you have, and providing you are in England or Wales then send the standard appeal letter to the parking company. The letter is contained in the Newbies sticky thread at the top of the forum.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Mar 14, 6:49 PM
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:49 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:49 PM
    the BB is not relevant on private land but the EA 2010 is , so mention both if both are relevant by adding the details to the PPC appeal, but DO NOT inply who the driver was and DO NOT give out any driver details either

    if you wish, you can scan the BB and attach it to your appeal, but they should cancel this as soon as they know a BB holder is involved, never mind the fact those people are protected under the EA 2010
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 8th Mar 14, 6:53 PM
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    Stroma
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:53 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 14, 6:53 PM
    It would be helpful if you named the parking company and the retailer . Sounds like a parking eye and Aldi stunt to me
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 8th Mar 14, 7:10 PM
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    outofmoney
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 14, 7:10 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 14, 7:10 PM
    Yes Parking Eye and was Farmfoods.

    I am planning on re reading the sticky, but it is quite long and quite complicated.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Mar 14, 7:15 PM
    • 25,006 Posts
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    Redx
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 14, 7:15 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 14, 7:15 PM
    complain to the retailer and show them shopping receipts etc , mention you have 2 sonds who were with you and are protected under the EA 2010 law and insist they get Parking Eye to cancel the parking charge

    as well as this, use the template letter in the sticky thread and mention the BB and the EA 2010 too, insisting PE cancel the charge , send it from the post office with free certificate of posting unless you use their website to appeal it , in which case avoid implying or naming the driver
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 8th Mar 14, 8:54 PM
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    da_rule
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 14, 8:54 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 14, 8:54 PM
    I didn't actually go in the shop. I always have done before but noticed the change in time when we returned to the car so just left. The shop lost our custom because of this change!
    Originally posted by outofmoney
    Well they will only know you didn't go in if you tell them that. If you're a regular customer and you remind them of this they may not want to risk losing you.
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 8th Mar 14, 9:52 PM
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    outofmoney
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 14, 9:52 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 14, 9:52 PM
    I have read the sticky but still confused.

    We have use the car park a number of times. It has always been 90 minutes. Since our last use it has been reduced to 60 minutes. We did not notice since we were too busy dealing with the children and their safety.

    It had taken us a while to park as the first two bays we tried were full of broken glass. The third also had some but not as much. Making sure the children avoided it was our priority. The sign on glancing as we entered the car park, looked no different, so we had no reason to think there had been any change.

    Do I write all this info into the first 'soft appeal' or just tell them I am appealing the charge?

    Just remembered the advise above to use the letter from the sticky. Sorry, it is hard to concentrate when you have an Autistic children flapping about and interrupting every 5 minutes.
    Last edited by outofmoney; 08-03-2014 at 10:54 PM.
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 8th Mar 14, 9:58 PM
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    da_rule
    You could include it, they may pay attention to it (unlikely as very few PPC's actually read the appeals, they just reject). Make sure you include all of the other points on the suggested appeal template from the Newbies sticky.

    Just a note that POPLA will not consider this extra point as it is mitigation.
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 8th Mar 14, 10:52 PM
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    outofmoney
    What extra point will POLPLA not consider? The fact that the time was changed?
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 8th Mar 14, 10:54 PM
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    da_rule
    What extra point will POLPLA not consider? The fact that the time was changed?
    Originally posted by outofmoney
    Yes. POPLA only consider specific issues and not mitigating circumstances. But if you follow the appropriate POPLA appeal template then you will win a POPLA appeal.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Mar 14, 3:29 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Do I write all this info into the first 'soft appeal' or just tell them I am appealing the charge?
    But I don't advise using a 'soft appeal' in the sticky. I give you a template STRONG appeal to use which suits all cases, which I am hoping you have now found.

    You could add another point to it but the danger is NOT to write a line which tells them who was driving! IMHO the issue of having autistic children as passengers, which delays shopping significantly, is is important though.

    So I think you should be adding a paragraph, to the effect that:

    'The driver & passenger had two autistic children with them and there was broken glass which delayed the parking of the car in the first place, as the children had to be kept safe. Also the fact that the children meet the definition of disability under the Equality Act 2010 means that an otherwise arbitrary time limit in a customer car park MUST be flexible and is always subject to the Operator making a 'reasonable adjustment' of time, as is your legal duty as a service provider. It takes longer for disabled customers to shop and so the shorter time limit you appear to have suddenly imposed is discriminatory and the charge should be cancelled. In addition I require you to add my car registration to a 'white list' of exempt cars at that car park, forthwith, and to confirm that you have done so. If I or any driver of my car is subjected to any more demands from you in the future I will consider suing you under the Equality Act for failure to make reasonable adjustments and I will require sight of your 'disability impact assessment' which you and your client must have undertaken when you decided to reduce the time limit to one hour without consultation with local disabled groups'.

    Add that to the template appeal as point #4.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-03-2014 at 3:39 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 9th Mar 14, 10:13 PM
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    outofmoney
    Not sure I have found the strong appeal. If I'm honest most of the wording is far too legal for my understanding which is why I rely on help from the more experienced people on here. I can write great letters but when quoting the law I fall apart.

    Once I have located the strong appeal I will add the above into it.

    Thank you for your help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Mar 14, 10:15 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Top of the forum, the NEWBIES thread I wrote. Has one appeal in it and it is not really difficult to understand and you just copy/paste it!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 9th Mar 14, 10:16 PM
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    Stroma
    Here it is for you

    Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

    PCN number xxxxxxx
    As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

    1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
    2) Your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
    3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

    Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

    - the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your NTK failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

    - if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

    - if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

    - if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

    Take formal note:

    (a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

    (b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

    (c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of 18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

    By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

    Yours,



    {the registered keeper's name}
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 9th Mar 14, 10:40 PM
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    outofmoney
    Yes I have seen that but I am assuming they have permission and the signage was clear (even though change of time was not) so I am confused as to what exactly I do and don't include in the appeal.

    The car park is not local so I have no idea if signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice.

    Nor do I have a clue what number 3 means or if it is relevant.

    I fully appreciate it may seem simple enough but it's not the type of jargon I use daily so it is quite difficult for me to get my head round.

    I have no legal knowledge so can only assume I have the right to add in the bit about expenses.

    I appreciate I sound like a right pain in the bum, but I want to make sure I write exactly the correct thing. I have already emailed Farmfoods but being a weekend I haven't had a reply as yet.

    The letter took over a week to come so I have lost half the appeal time already.
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 9th Mar 14, 10:44 PM
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    outofmoney
    [QUOTE=Coupon-mad;64924784]But I don't advise using a 'soft appeal' in the sticky. I give you a template STRONG appeal to use which suits all cases, which I am hoping you have now found.

    I have just re read this. I mis understood and thought you were saying you didn't advise me to use the soft appeal in the sticky but to use the strong one. Hence my comment at not finding it. I now realise you meant that in the sticky you don't advise a soft appeal.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Mar 14, 10:57 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes I have seen that but I am assuming they have permission and the signage was clear (even though change of time was not) so I am confused as to what exactly I do and don't include in the appeal.
    Include all of it plus the extra point 4. Assume NOTHING! It's not just about whether they have 'permission' - of course they have 'permission to issue tickets' otherwise they'd be acting illegally and trespassing too - that's not the point though. Did you see my template use the words 'permission to issue tickets'? Nope. It says 'STANDING' which covers a lot more. And signage is never compliant which is why I have that point 2 in there as standard!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-03-2014 at 11:00 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • outofmoney
    • By outofmoney 9th Mar 14, 11:36 PM
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    outofmoney
    Brilliant thanks. It still means absolutely nothing to me but I have full faith in you

    I've spent the weekend with a sickness bug and the days before looking after my mother and before that son with the same bug so maybe in a day or two my brain may have actually gathered a few more cells and I will be able to think more clearly.
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