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  • FIRST POST
    • Richard_T_
    • By Richard_T_ 19th Jan 14, 10:08 AM
    • 253Posts
    • 95Thanks
    Richard_T_
    Parking Charge Notice received
    • #1
    • 19th Jan 14, 10:08 AM
    Parking Charge Notice received 19th Jan 14 at 10:08 AM
    After joining MSE forums as a result of the content on the mobile phones/internet/tech sections, I discovered this little section ( parking tickets fines and parking) I browsed through it every now and again, but the over riding thing was - It could never happen to me as I don't spend that long in these places, and im always extremely careful with Pay and display car parks and parking straight in a space.

    So the other week, I visited one of the Albrecht brothers discount stores, twice in one day on the first visit it was packed inside the store ( although there was ample parking) and on the second visit they didn't have what I was after so I left empty handed and went off to a Tesco.
    I'm trying to avoid specific name mentioning at the moment as if things are to be believed they are spying on this place ( ??? real or paranoia)

    I then received a letter in the post saying that I owe a rididculous amount for parking as they seem to think I was there for over 8 Hours!! ( if the parking management company was doing its job a foot patrol warden would have noticed my vehicle was not there)

    Ive got a few concerns/issues with the letter as it appears to state that under the protection of freedoms Act the Driver is required to pay the amount in full - reading through various topics on here this appears to be anything but the case, isnt this fraud/miss representation, demanding money with menaces, and probably a multitude of other things? - I will attempt to post this up later if anyone want to see it
    and if so then why arent these people responsible being locked up?
    Also is the shop anyway liable for all of this?

    Im just about to pop off to the shop in question to speak to the manager to see if He/She will sort this out, i will post back later.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Jan 14, 10:15 AM
    • 22,605 Posts
    • 28,727 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 19th Jan 14, 10:15 AM
    • #2
    • 19th Jan 14, 10:15 AM
    best to see that manager

    parking prankster has blogged about this , and calls it "double dipping"

    its where they conveniently see the first log in , and the last log out , and total it as one stay , so they miss out the log out and log in in the middle of the periods involved

    its quite common actually , and as private parking is unregulated, that is probably why they are not locked up !! (its not criminal either, but its morally indefensible)

    should you get nowhere with that manager or the retail park staff (or landowner) , read this thread http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    and read pranksters blogs about highview and "double dipping!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Jan 14, 11:07 AM
    • 13,449 Posts
    • 13,802 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:07 AM
    • #3
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:07 AM
    When you say that it (double dipping), is not a criminal offence Redx, are you sure? If these cameras are used to charge people for parking time, should they not be accurate? Should they not fall to be calibrated by Trading Standards, just as are petrol pumps and airline baggage scales.

    If I was OP, I would be inclined to raise this with his TSO.
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 19th Jan 14, 11:13 AM
    • 7,917 Posts
    • 8,408 Thanks
    Stroma
    • #4
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:13 AM
    • #4
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:13 AM
    You need to appeal to parking eye (I presume it's them) , pointless going to certain store as they will not help you if you don't have a spend there. So send a suitable soft appeal followed by an appeal to popla when they reject
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Jan 14, 11:19 AM
    • 22,605 Posts
    • 28,727 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:19 AM
    • #5
    • 19th Jan 14, 11:19 AM
    When you say that it (double dipping), is not a criminal offence Redx, are you sure? If these cameras are used to charge people for parking time, should they not be accurate? Should they not fall to be calibrated by Trading Standards, just as are petrol pumps and airline baggage scales.

    If I was OP, I would be inclined to raise this with his TSO.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    I have never mentioned being legally trained

    clearly this has been debated on here many times and so its included with many appeals, I am also sure parking prankster has a view on this, all I am doing is merely pointing it out and noting that nobody appears to have been taken to court over it (as a criminal offence)

    The OP raised the issues of criminality , not me

    I have no objection if you wish to do something similar to prankster or the OP and try to validate your theories by actually "double dipping" yourself and trying to get it to court (like he has done)

    I believe that the OP seems to believe that these parking issues have a criminal element, but unless there is a basis in fact or somebody wishes to test it out in court then maybe we will never know

    its certainly a good theory that needs testing in law, thats for sure
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Jan 14, 12:00 PM
    • 13,449 Posts
    • 13,802 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:00 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:00 PM
    My experience of Trading Standards is that they are understaffed and underfunded, and rarely do court. However, if a complaint is made to them that charges are being made for parking time where the machines used to record that time are clearly malfunctioning they will act.

    Personally, I think that TSOs should be involved every time a camera/time recorder malfunctions and the public are overcharged as a result.

    I used a P&D meter the other day operated by NCP for Reading Borough Council which was 3 minutes fast. I have reported it to NCP and it the clock has not been corrected when I use the car park again later this week I shall raise the matter with TSD.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Jan 14, 12:19 PM
    • 22,605 Posts
    • 28,727 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:19 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:19 PM
    I agree that there should be a lot more checks and hoops to jump through on these private parking matters and that trading standards and other bodies should get more involved , despite the cutbacks

    I am also sure some of them are close to criminality too, but until we see evidence of criminal activity and that the authorities are involved, I will say that its all a civil matter (but would like to see more regulation and the threat of criminal laws being brought to bear)

    I just think the OP is mixed up (like most people are) on the subject of criminality, and civil issues like private parking
    Last edited by Redx; 19-01-2014 at 6:03 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pvt
    • By pvt 19th Jan 14, 12:52 PM
    • 1,370 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    pvt
    • #8
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:52 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Jan 14, 12:52 PM
    I'm with The Deep on this.

    I see absolutely no difference between a PPC using flawed timekeeping to justify a contractual charge, and a butcher using hobbled scales to overcharge a punter for his finest filet.

    Given that the technology seems to be reliably able to clock a vehicle in on the first visit and out on the final visit, it seems inconceivable that it would miss BOTH the first exit and the second entry. Either of those two events would clearly flaw the evidence they are presenting to justify their contractual charge.

    I think it most definitly is a TSO matter.
    Optimists see a glass half full
    Pessimists see a glass half empty
    Engineers just see a glass twice the size it needed to be
    • Richard_T_
    • By Richard_T_ 19th Jan 14, 5:48 PM
    • 253 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    Richard_T_
    • #9
    • 19th Jan 14, 5:48 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Jan 14, 5:48 PM
    I went to the shop in question, and spoke to the manager who told me that tis nothing to do with them as they only rent the car park, and that i should talk to the council.
    He then said that it ( the parking company ) was a separate company and nothing to do with them.
    After a short while he took my letter ( that the parking management co. sent me) and said he could fax it somehwere.
    This was then follwed by more guff along the lines of:
    separate company nothing to do with us, never seen one of these before, not our car park we only rent the building, have you tried contacting the council? and so on.
    So for now its a case of wait and see what transpires from the fax that he aparently sent.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Jan 14, 5:53 PM
    • 22,605 Posts
    • 28,727 Thanks
    Redx
    chances are he is correct, in which case you need to know the landowner details, which I dont think is the council
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 19th Jan 14, 7:50 PM
    • 10,847 Posts
    • 10,322 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Seems to me you have had a Notice to Keeper. When did it arrive?

    You need to appeal to the PPC to get the opportunity to go to POPLA, as long as you are in time, but we need to know date of incident, date of NtK, amount demanded and full amount payable after their bargain discount offer.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Jan 14, 11:04 PM
    • 73,405 Posts
    • 85,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I went to the shop in question, and spoke to the manager who told me that tis nothing to do with them as they only rent the car park, and that i should talk to the council.
    He then said that it ( the parking company ) was a separate company and nothing to do with them.
    After a short while he took my letter ( that the parking management co. sent me) and said he could fax it somehwere.
    This was then follwed by more guff along the lines of:
    separate company nothing to do with us, never seen one of these before, not our car park we only rent the building, have you tried contacting the council? and so on.
    So for now its a case of wait and see what transpires from the fax that he aparently sent.
    Originally posted by Richard_T_

    Are you seriously saying you gave him the original copy of the letter that you MUST challenge within 28 days, so you now have no copy/refs?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 20th Jan 14, 7:46 AM
    • 2,395 Posts
    • 3,179 Thanks
    nigelbb
    Are you seriously saying you gave him the original copy of the letter that you MUST challenge within 28 days, so you now have no copy/refs?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    A fax machine sends a copy it's not a Star Trek style transporter.
    The original was probably handed back.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jan 14, 8:34 AM
    • 73,405 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Hope so, but it read as though the Manager took it, so he could fax something later...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Richard_T_
    • By Richard_T_ 20th Jan 14, 4:31 PM
    • 253 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    Richard_T_
    Ive still got the original copy, and at the moment im inclined to do nothing but read up on a few things,at the moment I have just discovered the parking prankster.

    Here are a few facts about it so far:
    Made two visits to the store on question, as it was busy i didnt stop in the first instance, and on the evening visit they had sold out of what i was after.
    the parking company is claiming that I spent 8 hours or so and i now owe them a fair bit of cash, The free stay is only so long, "along with other terms which conditions of the car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound"
    So sounds like a breach of contract penalty for something that didn't occur. If the store had a parking warden on duty keeping an eye on things then maybe this error wouldn't have occurred.

    Timings and dates

    Date of event: Day Zero
    Date issued in,letter header: Day 5
    Date letter received: Day 6
    Date visited Albrecht brothers discount store: day 7


    So for now its just a case of wait and see, If I do not hear nothing more then I will be complaining to the retailer, and the parking company.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jan 14, 4:42 PM
    • 73,405 Posts
    • 85,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So glad to hear you still have the original NTK as you might need to appeal, don't ignore this. Make sure you do actually appeal to the PPC well before the 28 days is up, so you keep your options open for a POPLA code. Our appeals always win at POPLA and you should follow the guidance in the NEWBIE FAQs thread about challenging it as keeper (not implying who was driving).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Richard_T_
    • By Richard_T_ 23rd Jan 14, 5:34 PM
    • 253 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    Richard_T_
    State of play so far - nothing.
    I dont know how long to leave it before trying to contact the aldy store again, or even if it worth using their customer services via e-mail.
    Ive also been browsing the parking prankster blog, and a few other things, and i quite like the idea of claiming reasonable expenses from them should they not see sense and cancel the fine, although the parking prankster blog talks about a hospital and claiming money back from a parking company could this also be applied to the store who contracted the parking enforcement company to issue fines on their site ( that is making a claim against aldy for costs) im not after a significant amount just a small sum to just about cover petrol costs etc?

    Ive also had a look at a planning website, and it appears that the store manager lied to me as the car park does belong to aldy.

    If it does go to the independent appeals service i can provide proof that the charge is not valid as I have receipts for that day from other locations a good distance away that i visited in between the claimed times on the parking fine letter, as well as a few other things that should explain what I was doing on that day and why the charge is wrong.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Jan 14, 5:37 PM
    • 73,405 Posts
    • 85,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just send an appeal now to the PPC, as per the NEWBIES FAQs sticky thread's linked examples of first appeals. No need to wait, that's why I posted again above to make sure you didn't rest on your laurels.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 23rd Jan 14, 5:43 PM
    • 8,201 Posts
    • 3,011 Thanks
    Buzby
    Planning websites do not show who the owners are - only the Valuation Roll does this, so your summation of the manager's truthfulness may be off beam.
    • Richard_T_
    • By Richard_T_ 25th Jan 14, 7:35 AM
    • 253 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    Richard_T_
    Its been a week now since I visited the Aldi store in question, and the manager faxed, or said he faxed the letter and nothing so far.
    With regards to ownership of the car park, the car park only serves that Aldi store, and I dont think that its owned by the parking contractors, parking eye. I think the store manager was just saying that to get rid of the situation.
    If nothing comes in the post today, then i will be complaining to Aldi and parking eye simultaneously.
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