Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    fighting the good fight
    I have CCJ against company but the debt hasn't been paid
    • #1
    • 27th Oct 13, 10:17 PM
    I have CCJ against company but the debt hasn't been paid 27th Oct 13 at 10:17 PM
    I'm surprised at how difficult this process through the small claims court is, and I really need advice. I'll try to keep the facts of my case simple,:

    • Through the Small Claims Court, I have a CCJ against a "Limited" company, for 1000 + costs
    • I have tried to 'enforce the judgment', using County Court bailiffs, but they say something like "there are no saleable goods at this private residence"
    • I think I understand that other methods of enforcing the judgment, including a Charge against his Property and Freezing his Assets, are useless - because it's a Limited company
    • I don't know for sure if the company / its owner is still trading, under any name. I have been on the 'companieshouse' website as I write this and the company has a blank status (ie not 'dissolved' or other), suggesting it still trades.
    My questions are:

    Is it worth pursuing the enforcement route of Ordering him to Attend court?
    Is there a bankruptcy route i can pursue, and how, and is it worth it?
    Is it worth elevating from County Court to High Court?

    And, what do I have to do to work out which of these options best suits my circumstances, and / or is the most likely to succeed?

    Finally, am I right that there is no limit to the legal costs I can incur in chasing this debt that will be added to his debt? ie, if I have to pursue all available measures /costs before getting my money, will he ultimately be legally responsible for them all?
Page 3
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 27th Dec 16, 11:18 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Taking council to court for illegal car seizure
    Hi there,

    I hope I'm posting in the right place. Its not very clear...
    This is complex, but Ill try to keep it succinct.
    I received a number of PCN's from Brighton and Hove City Council. All whilst working in one particular street. I do not dispute the PCN's themselves, I know thats a lost cause. However..
    The PCN's were passed very quickly on to Excel Enforcement. An enforcement agency based in wales. (why they use an enforcement company based in essentially a different country is beyond me) So I received repeated visits from Welsh Bailiffs demanding money for one of the PCN's (which had by this point exponentially increased, from 105 to over 500)
    Now I was unable to pay it and knew my rights to a certain extent in dealing with Bailiffs.
    But because its connected to a vehicle, they can essentially find, clamp and seize that vehicle to cover the debt. Wherever it is..
    Now I tried and tried to contact the council themselves to organise either a payment schedule, or to consolidate the PCN's but they are uncontactable. They explicitly state that they will not discuss PCNs by phone or in person. They're only response to letters are standard responses, and will never address a specific issue.
    So they came, they clamped. and called for the truck to take my vehicle away.
    -I immediately contacted a debt advice solicitor and he instructed me to make a sworn declaration that the vehicle did not in fact belong to me, but to my partner. So this was immediately done. (in front of a local solicitor, all whilst the Bailiff waited for the truck)
    This was duly ignored by the bailiff on instruction of his boss
    -I called the police to declare my car was being illegally seized
    They came, and very nicely said they couldn't get involved in a civil matter (but filmed everything)
    -I also discovered that legally, if an item essential to your employment is worth no more than 1350 they cannot legally seize it.
    They assumed it was worth more and took it anyway.

    In the end, after unsuccessful wrangling between the lacklustre debt advice solicitor, the enforcement agent and Brighton and Hove city council, my car was sold at auction, for 1100. to cover a single parking ticket. they are supposed to reimburse you any extra money made, but the total cost, bailiffs charges, collection charges, auctioneers charges, storage fees etc came to the STAGGERINGLY COINCIDENTAL sum of 1104. They didn't bill me the 4 bless them..

    I happened to research the market value of the vehicle, and it was 1200 in good mechanical and cosmetic condition. It was not in good cosmetic condition, and theres a pretty comprehensive inspection report of the vehicle filed away at eastbourne vehicle auctions which would prove this to be the case. Essentially the point is, it was definitely not worth more than 1350.

    So as to whether it was essential to my employment as a self employed carpenter: Since its sale my income has dramatically fallen, and provably so. To the extent that I am now applying for personal insolvency and unable to keep up with other payments. My Credit rating is and will plummet, and I cannot afford to buy a replacement vehicle.. Essentially Im stuffed.

    Never mind the other 12 parking tickets, which they refused to consolidate. This was as a result of one.
    I am a separated father of two kids, I have 50% responsibility for them. I receive no benefits or tax credits, and my girlfriend has zero income and suffers from anxiety.

    I would like to take the council to court for illegal seizure of the vehicle, reimburse me its full market value and compensate me for 6 months of lost earnings. Then arrange for any outstanding PCN's to be written off, or at the very least, returned to their original sum, consolidated, and a suitable payment arrangement to be made, directly to the authority.

    I am intelligent, angry and have little left to lose. But do I have a case?

    Thanks!
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 28th Dec 16, 12:40 AM
    • 2,191 Posts
    • 1,773 Thanks
    naedanger
    But do I have a case?
    Originally posted by Humminghorse23
    Unfortunately I suspect your question is too difficult for this board, which is more for simple questions about consumer law e.g. if someone buys something that becomes faulty.

    I suggest you speak to Citizen's Advice or perhaps the debt advice solicitor.

    (PS I think you need to be clear about whether the car was yours or your partner's. Your post reads like you lied on a sworn statement - declaring your car was owned by your partner. I am not saying you did lie, just that it could easily be read that way.)
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 28th Dec 16, 12:56 AM
    • 20,631 Posts
    • 12,780 Thanks
    dacouch
    http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/
    • harrys dad
    • By harrys dad 28th Dec 16, 8:18 AM
    • 1,928 Posts
    • 2,247 Thanks
    harrys dad
    @Humminghorse23

    I would suggest you repost as a new thread on the debt free wannabe board.
    • Bogalot
    • By Bogalot 28th Dec 16, 10:42 AM
    • 998 Posts
    • 2,587 Thanks
    Bogalot
    I am intelligent, angry and have little left to lose.
    Part of this statement is very much open to debate!
    • cookie365
    • By cookie365 28th Dec 16, 10:51 AM
    • 1,778 Posts
    • 1,176 Thanks
    cookie365
    Hi there,

    I hope I'm posting in the right place. Its not very clear...
    This is complex, but Ill try to keep it succinct.
    I received a number of PCN's from Brighton and Hove City Council. All whilst working in one particular street. I do not dispute the PCN's themselves, I know thats a lost cause. However..
    The PCN's were passed very quickly on to Excel Enforcement. An enforcement agency based in wales. (why they use an enforcement company based in essentially a different country is beyond me) So I received repeated visits from Welsh Bailiffs demanding money for one of the PCN's (which had by this point exponentially increased, from 105 to over 500)
    Now I was unable to pay it and knew my rights to a certain extent in dealing with Bailiffs.
    But because its connected to a vehicle, they can essentially find, clamp and seize that vehicle to cover the debt. Wherever it is..
    Now I tried and tried to contact the council themselves to organise either a payment schedule, or to consolidate the PCN's but they are uncontactable. They explicitly state that they will not discuss PCNs by phone or in person. They're only response to letters are standard responses, and will never address a specific issue.
    So they came, they clamped. and called for the truck to take my vehicle away.
    -I immediately contacted a debt advice solicitor and he instructed me to make a sworn declaration that the vehicle did not in fact belong to me, but to my partner. So this was immediately done. (in front of a local solicitor, all whilst the Bailiff waited for the truck)
    This was duly ignored by the bailiff on instruction of his boss
    -I called the police to declare my car was being illegally seized
    They came, and very nicely said they couldn't get involved in a civil matter (but filmed everything)
    -I also discovered that legally, if an item essential to your employment is worth no more than 1350 they cannot legally seize it.
    They assumed it was worth more and took it anyway.

    In the end, after unsuccessful wrangling between the lacklustre debt advice solicitor, the enforcement agent and Brighton and Hove city council, my car was sold at auction, for 1100. to cover a single parking ticket. they are supposed to reimburse you any extra money made, but the total cost, bailiffs charges, collection charges, auctioneers charges, storage fees etc came to the STAGGERINGLY COINCIDENTAL sum of 1104. They didn't bill me the 4 bless them..

    I happened to research the market value of the vehicle, and it was 1200 in good mechanical and cosmetic condition. It was not in good cosmetic condition, and theres a pretty comprehensive inspection report of the vehicle filed away at eastbourne vehicle auctions which would prove this to be the case. Essentially the point is, it was definitely not worth more than 1350.

    So as to whether it was essential to my employment as a self employed carpenter: Since its sale my income has dramatically fallen, and provably so. To the extent that I am now applying for personal insolvency and unable to keep up with other payments. My Credit rating is and will plummet, and I cannot afford to buy a replacement vehicle.. Essentially Im stuffed.

    Never mind the other 12 parking tickets, which they refused to consolidate. This was as a result of one.
    I am a separated father of two kids, I have 50% responsibility for them. I receive no benefits or tax credits, and my girlfriend has zero income and suffers from anxiety.

    I would like to take the council to court for illegal seizure of the vehicle, reimburse me its full market value and compensate me for 6 months of lost earnings. Then arrange for any outstanding PCN's to be written off, or at the very least, returned to their original sum, consolidated, and a suitable payment arrangement to be made, directly to the authority.

    I am intelligent, angry and have little left to lose. But do I have a case?

    Thanks!
    Originally posted by Humminghorse23
    Since this was your partner's car, none of it is anything to do with you. So you have no case, no.
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 28th Dec 16, 11:03 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Helpful, thanks.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 28th Dec 16, 12:19 PM
    • 10,472 Posts
    • 11,815 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    my car was sold at auction, for 1100.
    I happened to research the market value of the vehicle, and it was 1200 in good mechanical and cosmetic condition. It was not in good cosmetic condition, and theres a pretty comprehensive inspection report of the vehicle filed away at eastbourne vehicle auctions which would prove this to be the case. Essentially the point is, it was definitely not worth more than 1350.
    Originally posted by Humminghorse23
    The figures you quoted disagree.
    Generally, cars sold at auction realise far less than forecourt or private sales so if the vehicle sold at auction for 1100, this would imply that the book price for it would be at least 1350 and probably more.
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 28th Dec 16, 12:43 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Part of this statement is very much open to debate!
    Hi Bogalot,

    I came onto this forum because I am in a difficult situation. I was open and honest about it, and my mistakes. If all you can contribute is a snide remark which offers nothing at all except to perhaps amuse yourself and boost your ego then I suggest you think about the old saying, "if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing at all"

    I will now probably withdraw from the forum because my vulnerability was met with an insult. You can take responsibility for changing something I hoped would help me into something which has done the opposite.
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 28th Dec 16, 1:54 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Hi shaun,

    Yes I do see your point, and I was surprised by the sale price at auction. I expected it to be lower. However the mileage was high, and as I said, the cosmetic condition was poor.
    Also, I was offered a couple of weeks prior to its seizure; 1200 by "we buy any car" under the assumption it was in good cosmetic decision.
    The question is whether all this would be taken into account, in court, when it came to determining the value of the car. I would have thought so..?
    Either way, its a fine line, hence my reaching out for opinion!

    Thanks
    • macman
    • By macman 28th Dec 16, 2:28 PM
    • 42,800 Posts
    • 18,043 Thanks
    macman
    The price you are offered by WBAC online will always be reduced sharply once they have actually seen it-so an offer of 1.200 would probably be reduced to 1,000 anyway.
    If you are insolvent, how exactly do you intend to finance this civil action, and how will you pay the costs (for both parties) if you lose?
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 28th Dec 16, 2:30 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Hi naedanger,

    Thanks for post,

    It was my car. I was advised by the solicitor to sign over ownership (different from registered keeper) to my partner as a strategy to stop them from taking it. Something I'm legally entitled to do.

    However they took it anyway, stating my document was not legally valid. Therefore. As far as they are concerned, and according to their actions, it was my car.

    Point being, if it became my partners car, legally speaking, then it was also an illegal seizure, as the debt has nothing to do with her.. See what I mean? As far as I can see they are wrong in either case...
    • Humminghorse23
    • By Humminghorse23 28th Dec 16, 2:32 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Humminghorse23
    Hi macman,

    A very good point, and one I seriously need to consider, hence my reaching out for opinion.

    It would be a relatively small claim, through the small claims court, so my costs would be relatively low, but as you say, if I lose then my situation would become much worse.

    But if we all just do nothing, then are we not guilty of perpetuating this nonsense ourselves...?
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 28th Dec 16, 2:51 PM
    • 13,066 Posts
    • 10,414 Thanks
    unholyangel
    According to this page (not sure how reliable it is) the value they should be going by is auction value.

    http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/index/motor-vehicles-clamping-anpr/can-a-bailiff-take-my-car

    Also pretty sure it should be a case of that if the vehicle is worth more, they're supposed to give you the 1350 and put the rest towards your debt.

    What kind of bailiffs were they? Who were they acting on behalf of? You'll want to make complaints - but who to will depend on who the bailiffs were acting for. You will at least want to make complaints to the council who issued the ticket & the bailiff company. If they were court bailiffs, then you'll want to make a complaint to the court. If none of those are fruitful, you should be able to make a complaint with the local government ombudsman given its for enforcement of a council issued ticket.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Bogalot
    • By Bogalot 28th Dec 16, 2:57 PM
    • 998 Posts
    • 2,587 Thanks
    Bogalot
    Hi Bogalot,

    I came onto this forum because I am in a difficult situation. I was open and honest about it, and my mistakes. If all you can contribute is a snide remark which offers nothing at all except to perhaps amuse yourself and boost your ego then I suggest you think about the old saying, "if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing at all"

    I will now probably withdraw from the forum because my vulnerability was met with an insult. You can take responsibility for changing something I hoped would help me into something which has done the opposite.
    Originally posted by Humminghorse23
    I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my comment. The only person that needs to take responsibility here is yourself, for whatever reason you chose to accrue multiple PCNs and then failed to pay them. You then allowed the situation to escalate to such a point that they took your car. Note - your car - any judge would see your attempt to manipulate the situation by transferring ownership and treat it as still being yours.

    What you need to do now is a) make arrangement to pay your outstanding debts, and b) find a way to increase your income. The Debtfree Wannabe board can assist you with the former, and the Employment board the latter.

    Good luck!
    • naedanger
    • By naedanger 28th Dec 16, 3:05 PM
    • 2,191 Posts
    • 1,773 Thanks
    naedanger
    Hi naedanger,

    Thanks for post,

    It was my car. I was advised by the solicitor to sign over ownership (different from registered keeper) to my partner as a strategy to stop them from taking it. Something I'm legally entitled to do.

    However they took it anyway, stating my document was not legally valid. Therefore. As far as they are concerned, and according to their actions, it was my car.

    Point being, if it became my partners car, legally speaking, then it was also an illegal seizure, as the debt has nothing to do with her. See what I mean? As far as I can see they are wrong in either case...
    Originally posted by Humminghorse23
    Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

    I did wonder why (a) the solicitor would instruct you to lie, (b) you would follow that instruction, and (c) the solicitor would not just tell you to argue they could not seize the car because of its value. However it now makes sense. (Presumably your solicitor thought signing ownership of your car to your girlfriend was a better tactic than arguing about your need for the car and its value.)

    You do need to establish whether the "sale" to your girlfriend was legally effective and take action accordingly. (Presumably if the transfer was legally effective it would be your girlfriend who would need to take action.) Otherwise you could lose on a technicality. My guess is the "sale" was not effective because the car had already been seized but you do need to be sure of the actual position.

    Your situation does sound complicated. For example is there a risk that if you become insolvent and win a court case that the amount you win will be taken to cover your debts before you get a chance to replace your car?

    I hope the matter is resolved to your satisfaction since it is clearly a big deal.
    Last edited by naedanger; 28-12-2016 at 3:12 PM.
    • fwor
    • By fwor 28th Dec 16, 5:38 PM
    • 6,065 Posts
    • 4,119 Thanks
    fwor
    You do need to establish whether the "sale" to your girlfriend was legally effective and take action accordingly. (Presumably if the transfer was legally effective it would be your girlfriend who would need to take action.) Otherwise you could lose on a technicality. My guess is the "sale" was not effective because the car had already been seized but you do need to be sure of the actual position.
    Originally posted by naedanger
    With a limited understanding of how bailiffs operate, I suspect that this is where you will fail. As I understand it, once the bailiffs record an asset, it cannot legally be sold, transferred or otherwise disposed of - and that happens as soon as they turn up and identify the asset as yours. It sounds as though you attempted to transfer ownership too late for it to be legally effective. The time at which a recovery truck turns up is irrelevant - it's the earlier process that records the asset as a subject of the order that will count.

    Also, it's doubtful that the issue of the car's value would go in your favour. I doubt that a bailiff is expected to be able to value a car by eye with complete accuracy - with an actual auction value of 1100 they could probably argue that their estimate was within the bounds of what could be expected of them.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 28th Dec 16, 8:01 PM
    • 13,066 Posts
    • 10,414 Thanks
    unholyangel
    I dont believe the solicitor was advising OP to transfer ownership/sell the van to his partner after the fact - rather they were telling OP to lie - to make a statutory declaration that the partner had owned the van all along (or at least some time before the bailiffs tried to seize it) and the OP is just the registered keeper.

    The law when it comes to debt enforcement can be a bit backwards sometimes to say the least so it doesn't necessarily need to make sense in order to be correct.

    For example the old rule (could actually still be current rule in E&W but I know the loopholes been closed in scotland) that once wages were paid into your account, they ceased being wages and even if a bailiff/sheriff officer couldnt arrest your wages as they were too low, they could arrest every penny once it hit your bank account.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 28th Dec 16, 8:32 PM
    • 2,958 Posts
    • 2,933 Thanks
    steampowered
    I don't think the fact the car was sold for 1,100 matters. It was sold at auction so you can't really argue with that.

    I also don't think the last minute transfer of title to your partner would sounds very convincing. Presumably you would need to have registered the transfer prior to enforcement. In any event it would have to be your partner that would bring the court case if the car was hers.

    The point about cars essential to your work not being seized if below 1350 sounds relevant. Have a read of the legislation here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1894/pdfs/uksi_20131894_en.pdf
    Have a read of https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/your-belongings-and-bailiffs/what-goods-can-a-bailiff-take/vehicles-and-bailiffs/.
    • AG47
    • By AG47 8th Aug 18, 12:11 PM
    • 949 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    AG47
    Hi, I can't seem to open a new threa on this board, so sorry if it seems I hijacked this thread.

    I have somebody claiming I agreed to a loan with them, I said I did not and would not agre to that loan. I never had any loan from them at all as they claim.

    They said they had the loan agreement that I signed my self. I asked many times please can I have a copy of this, because I know I did not sign it.

    I finally got it, and it's not my signiture at all. It looks like a child's signed it.

    Then they said it's an electronic signiture.

    What on earth does this mean? Could anybody pick somebody off the street and claim they owe them thousands of pounds and they have this electronic signiture to some loan agreement?

    What can I do so that they don't damage my clean credit record?
    Nothing has been fixed since 2008, it was just pushed into the future
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,044Posts Today

8,025Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Yes (+ Blair's fear of being seen to impose a new 'tax') This rule will make the public cost of funding more reali? https://t.co/DE1VzzX4Do

  • Many asking "what does leaving EU actually mean for me?" both with or without a no-deal. The MSE guide to Brexit t? https://t.co/ULimpQPlHp

  • I'm very glad my poll today has caused such unity and consensus. It feels like a real moment of rapprochement in th? https://t.co/QVCzqsiVOi

  • Follow Martin