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  • FIRST POST
    Em92
    Parking eye strikes again! Advice needed...
    • #1
    • 19th Oct 13, 10:29 PM
    Parking eye strikes again! Advice needed... 19th Oct 13 at 10:29 PM
    Hello all,

    I'm new to this so still getting my head around it but am after some advice on how to appeal my parking charge notice from parking eye.

    I overstayed in a retail park car park by approx 35 mins and have received a PCN for the sum of £100 or £60 of paid promptly. I've spent a long while today reading various forums and seeking advice. As it stands at the moment I am planning on writing directly to the owner of the site and opening an appeal with PE initially potentially moving on to Popla if needs be. Is this the correct way of going about things?

    I cannot find who owns the retail park anywhere though so was wondering if it would be worth just contacting the manager of the shop I spent the most time in and purchased from? Or if anyone knows who owns rishworth centre retail park in Dewsbury that would be helpful.

    In regards to my appeal to PE I believe I have the following grounds,
    1. There was no evidence of calculation of the loss and therefor it can be argued that the charge they are suggesting is not genuine to the loss suffered by the land owner.

    2. On revisiting the car park I found there to be signs however these signs were much above eye level and the terms and conditions in the small print were almost entirely illegible which could question whether they are making it clear to drivers exactly what contract they are entering into.

    3. I was shopping in the stores owned by the landowner at the time and therefor spending money thus keeping the shops open.

    4. The photos I have received show my car entering and leaving the car park however this does not prove a breach in the parking contract as there is no evidence if the car ever being parked.

    I am also led to believe I should ask for additional information from them such as their calculation of loss, evidence of where their signs are placed within the car park etc.

    I found an excellent template letter on parking cow boys as a challenge letter, should I send one of these prior to an appeal? Or just appeal straight off?

    Have I got my info on this correct? If you need any additional info from me please let me know and any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 19th Oct 13, 11:05 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #2
    • 19th Oct 13, 11:05 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Oct 13, 11:05 PM
    First, well done for doing some preliminary research for yourself and getting to grips with the issues - it makes our lives much easier

    The process is:

    1 soft appeal to PE (appeal = challenge; same thing). If you have any receipts or card statement from your shopping trip include (redacted) copies and explain that you were a genuine customer spending money in the shops. Despite their bad press PE are one of the most reasonable PPCs where proof of purchase can be shown. Other than that, just pick a couple of points (I'd go for signage and genuine pre-estimate of loss). Keep it short, invite them to cancel the charge and request a POPLA code if they refuse to do this.

    2 Once you have the magic code, the next stage is to appeal to POPLA. While you are waiting for your code, have a look at the last few pages on the POPLA decisions thread (top of page 1 of this forum). You will quickly see what is winning at POPLA at the moment.

    3 When you have prepared your first draft POPLA appeal, post it here so the regulars can check it over before it goes.

    4 In the meantime a googe for the Rishworth Centre brings up this
    http://completelyretail.co.uk/media/scheme/5796/CR_RW_5796_Railway_Street_Pets_At_Home_Clarks_Bewi se_Dewsbury_brochure_1.pdf

    It is a bit old now, but the last page contains two e-mail addresses, which would be a starting point in finding out who the landowner or managing agent is. Also it is worth going back and checking the signage as retail prk signs often give the details of the managing agents for the retail park.

    hth

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • Em92
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 13, 5:16 PM
    Draft appeal to PE
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 13, 5:16 PM
    Hi Daisy,

    I've drafted my initial PE appeal with the help of parkingcowboys.com template as can be on their website under private parking tickets, example letters.

    I have posted the draft below and would be grateful if you would be able to look over it for me? I'm not sure about the writing style as evidently I'm not a lawyer.

    Many Many Thanks in advance!

    Em



    Name
    Address
    Date

    Notice to Driver 08XXXXXXX

    On 10/10/13 I was the registered keeper of a XXXXXX registration number XXXXXXX.

    I dispute the parking charge for the reasons set out below.

    1. Geunuine Shopper
    On the day the parking charge was incurred I was a shopper on the Rishworth Centre Retail Park and therefor was spending money in the shops on site whilst my car was parked. Unfortunately I am only able to locate one receipt from the day that I have enclosed a copy of with this letter however more purchases than this one were made on site that day.

    2. Genuine Estimate of Loss
    The parking charge you are imposing is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable). The £100 parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder.

    3. Signage
    I do not believe that the signs that are used around the car park are prominent enough for drivers to see as they are relatively small, well above eye level and do not stand out from the busy background. Further to this the terms and conditions are entirely illegible due to them being in a small font and positioned so far above eye level. This means that as a driver I was not made clear of the terms and conditions of the contract I was entering into when parking in the Rishworth Centre Retail Park car park. If you do not believe this to be the case I would ask you to send photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please can you also provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park along with evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.

    If you reject this appeal or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the contract held between yourselves and the land owner and the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

    Yours,
    XXXXXXXXX


    I also have some photographs of the signs that I could include if you think it would help? Or if you'd like to see them first I can post them?
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 21st Oct 13, 6:00 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 13, 6:00 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 13, 6:00 PM
    Good start - It is important that you do not identify yourself as the driver, so I have changed some of the wording for you (see changes in red).

    In fact I would cut the appeal down a lot more as it is pointless asking them to produce evidence as they have no obligation to do that at this stage.

    I also would not bother sending in photos either.

    The whole point is that, no matter what you say, they probably will reject your appeal - and if they do uphold it and cancel the charge, it will be on the genuine shopper point - so it is a really good idea to get onto the retail park/shops as soon as you have got your appeal sent off.

    Leave your draft appeal up for the others to comment.

    Daisy

    Name
    Address
    Date

    PCN Number 08XXXXXXX

    On 10/10/13 I was the registered keeper of a XXXXXX registration number XXXXXXX.

    I dispute the parking charge for the reasons set out below.

    1. Genuine Shopper
    On the day the parking charge was incurred the driver was a shopper on the Rishworth Centre Retail Park and therefor was spending money in the shops on site whilst my car was parked. Unfortunately the driver is only able to locate one receipt from the day that which is enclosed a copy of with this letter however more purchases than this one were made on site that day.

    2. Genuine Estimate of Loss
    The parking charge you are imposing is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable). The £100 parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder.

    3. Signage
    The driver did not see any signs. I have since visited the site and discovered that the signs that are used around the car park are not prominent enough for drivers to see as they are relatively small and well above eye level and do not stand out from the busy background. Further to this the terms and conditions are entirely illegible due to them being in a small font and positioned so far above eye level. This means that the driver was not made clear of the terms and conditions of the contract I was entering into when parking in the Rishworth Centre Retail Park car park. If you do not believe this to be the case I would ask you to send photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please can you also provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park along with evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.

    If you reject this appeal or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the contract held between yourselves and the land owner and the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

    Yours,
    XXXXXXXXX


    I also have some photographs of the signs that I could include if you think it would help? Or if you'd like to see them first I can post them?
    Originally posted by Em92
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 13, 8:10 PM
    • 76,795 Posts
    • 90,164 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 13, 8:10 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 13, 8:10 PM
    I cannot find who owns the retail park anywhere though so was wondering if it would be worth just contacting the manager of the shop I spent the most time in and purchased from? Or if anyone knows who owns rishworth centre retail park in Dewsbury that would be helpful.

    If you look at the sticky 'successful complaints about PPCs' at the top of this forum, you will see that two people have got fake PCNs cancelled easily at that car park, by the Matalan Store Manager who is a lovely lady by all accounts. At least one of them had no receipts to show for that day but she still cancelled it.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Em92
    • #6
    • 24th Oct 13, 1:04 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Oct 13, 1:04 PM
    Thanks to both of you, I sent a letter off to the manager of the store at the same time as my appeal to parking eye and have just received a phone call from the manager of Matalan who has said if I bring the parking notice down she'll get it canceled for me!

    Thanks again for all your help!

    Much Appreciated!

    Em
    • martmonk
    • By martmonk 24th Oct 13, 1:08 PM
    • 859 Posts
    • 913 Thanks
    martmonk
    • #7
    • 24th Oct 13, 1:08 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Oct 13, 1:08 PM
    Excellent - another one for the hall of fame....
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249
  • Flockle
    • #8
    • 21st Mar 14, 8:12 AM
    • #8
    • 21st Mar 14, 8:12 AM
    I guess zzzLazyDaisy gets a lot of private emails, but I've an interesting one I'd like to pass by you privately before posting on the Forum.
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 21st Mar 14, 8:14 AM
    • 14,794 Posts
    • 13,463 Thanks
    bod1467
    • #9
    • 21st Mar 14, 8:14 AM
    • #9
    • 21st Mar 14, 8:14 AM
    Hmm. Newbie wants to PM someone with something "private"?

    Daisy doesn't come around here so often these days.
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 21st Mar 14, 8:17 AM
    • 3,546 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    da_rule
    Flockle, whatever it is it probably isn't as interesting or unique as you think it is. Just start a new thread and we'll help you out.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Mar 14, 10:26 AM
    • 15,290 Posts
    • 15,952 Thanks
    The Deep
    The landowners appears to be Axa Sun Life. Try phoning Tim Hornor, 020 7758 0403 or Adam Patrtick, 020 7758 0407, both at Edgerley Simpson Howe, who may be able to provide you with a contact number.
    Last edited by The Deep; 21-03-2014 at 10:36 AM.
  • Flockle
    I see zzzLazyDaisy did actually visit the site on the 19 of March.

    Well yes you could be correct in it not being unique, but posting the question on the foum allows certain others to also view the questions posed.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Mar 14, 10:30 AM
    • 15,290 Posts
    • 15,952 Thanks
    The Deep
    But surely Flockle, the more the PPC know about their opponent the less likely they are to put up a fight,

    I do not understand why people are so secretive here, let them know just how big your dad really is.
    Last edited by The Deep; 21-03-2014 at 10:37 AM.
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 21st Mar 14, 10:37 AM
    • 3,546 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    da_rule
    Also, as long as you don't go putting your name, address, PCN number, vehicle registration etc in the post they can't really identify you.
    • Hot Bring
    • By Hot Bring 21st Mar 14, 11:21 AM
    • 1,515 Posts
    • 2,628 Thanks
    Hot Bring
    I see zzzLazyDaisy did actually visit the site on the 19 of March.

    Well yes you could be correct in it not being unique, but posting the question on the foum allows certain others to also view the questions posed.
    Originally posted by Flockle
    Just post your question minus any identifying information.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri
  • Flockle
    I definitly want the incident posting up here, and I wouldnt be puuting such information on view of course but I'm just mindfull of the facts as I post them would be identifiable by 'other's in the know.

    Stand by..
    • da_rule
    • By da_rule 21st Mar 14, 11:23 AM
    • 3,546 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    da_rule
    If you do post please start a new thread.
  • Flockle
    Will post as a new thread..
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