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  • FIRST POST
    firefly72
    Another Excel / Peel Centre casualty
    • #1
    • 15th Oct 13, 5:28 PM
    Another Excel / Peel Centre casualty 15th Oct 13 at 5:28 PM
    I thought I would add my story to the many stories already here. I have been reading the threads and while they are really useful they are also starting to become something of a hall of mirrors - so many threads referring to other threads and back again! All just show how many people have been caught up in this mess.

    Like many people, I have received an ANPR notice from Excel in the post charging me 60/100 for non-payment of parking charges. Like a lot of people, the visit was also to the KFC at the Peel Centre.

    Many have mentioned the change in signage at the Peel Centre but these are still pretty poor and completely unlit at night. Unlit signs count as no breach of contract, right?

    On the night in question, it was well after sunset and the car park was in darkness as were the rest of the shops. How many have been conveniently snared by the new 24 hour charges when the same dark carpark had been free in the evenings before?

    I'll do my homework and read the threads and write an appeal for a POPLA code etc, and come back here when I hear anything.

    In the meantime, any moral support is appreciated!
Page 1
    • bondy lad
    • By bondy lad 15th Oct 13, 5:34 PM
    • 976 Posts
    • 1,048 Thanks
    bondy lad
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 13, 5:34 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 13, 5:34 PM
    good luck to you, everyone on this forum knows i hate excel with a passion,but even i have to bow to their new signage,it is sadly very clear,though i have not been there at night so cannot argue,not that i want to,hit the popla route deffo.they will no doubt cave in when they have to fork out 32-00,,,others with much more experience will be along with super advice for you shortly.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Oct 13, 6:56 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 13, 6:56 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 13, 6:56 PM
    Here's what to do when:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=83749&st=0&gopid=874216

    You will win in the end as Excel will fail to show POPLA the landowner contract and neither can they show this was a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Also the signs around the KFC are different and not as clear in their stated terms I believe, as the new signs elsewhere. So those would be 3 solid appeal points for POPLA once you have finally prised a POPLA code out of Excel, who might write first and bluster that they have to know who the driver was (hope you have read not to tell them, and to just demand the POPLA code and report them to the BPA!).

    We have at least two recent Excel KFC Peel Centre threads which you can find by searching the forum for the acronym KFC.

    And we are encouraging everyone to complain to the Peel Centre Management every time about this harassment, for daring to pop in for a KFC.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-10-2013 at 6:59 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • firefly72
    • #4
    • 16th Oct 13, 12:49 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Oct 13, 12:49 PM
    A question: in my initial appeal to Excel do I include photos, or save that for POPLA?

    Thanks.
    • ITGuy90
    • By ITGuy90 16th Oct 13, 2:13 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    ITGuy90
    • #5
    • 16th Oct 13, 2:13 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Oct 13, 2:13 PM
    I'd save that for POPLA. Don't show your hand to Excel, they'll get a better chance to refute your points. Correct me if I am wrong here please.

    It's annoying, I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. Why do we have to prove our innocence rather than them prove our guilt? It's digusting.
  • firefly72
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:17 PM
    Update
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:17 PM
    I've sent off appeal letter to Excel and complaint letters to KFC and the management of the Peel Centre. Will post when I get a response.

    Interesting to see how many new threads have started against Peel/Excel since I first posted!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 13, 3:21 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:21 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:21 PM
    Did you see I have added an email address (& names) for complaining to the Peel Centre, in post #3 of the 'successful complaints about PPCs' sticky thread at the top of this forum?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-10-2013 at 3:44 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • firefly72
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:41 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 13, 3:41 PM
    Did you se I have added an email address (& names) for complaining to the Peel Centre, in post #3 of the 'successful complaints about PPCs' sticky thread at the top of this forum?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I did! Thank you! I've sent snail mail letters as well.
    Last edited by firefly72; 21-10-2013 at 4:12 PM.
  • firefly72
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 13, 10:06 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 13, 10:06 PM
    Update: I got a stock letter from Excel saying they have received my letter and will respond in 35 days from the date of receipt.

    It's not even signed. I reckon they send out a lot of these...
  • firefly72
    I received a letter rejecting my appeal and attaching instructions for how to appeal to POPLA and a form and verification code. I'll work on drafting the appeal over the weekend and post it here for feedback? Thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Nov 13, 10:45 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    POPLA = Parking on Private Land Appeals (the second stage 'independent' appeal service which is applicable in England/Wales ONLY).

    How to win at POPLA.

    POPLA decisions (do not start reading there at page 1 - read back from the most recent at the end, and learn!).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • firefly72
    I am planning to work on it a bit more, but would appreciate some feedback in the meantime. How is this as a first draft?

    Dear POPLA Assessor

    Verification code:
    Vehicle registration:
    PCN:
    PPC: Excel Parking Services Ltd.
    Alleged contravention date and time:
    Date of PCN:

    I am the registered keeper of the vehicle above and I am writing to appeal against recent parking charges issued to me by Excel Parking Services Ltd for allegedly parking without displaying a valid Pay & Display ticket. My appeal to the PPC was rejected in a letter dated 25 November 2013. I am appealing against the charges on the following grounds:

    1. Signage
    2. Lack of contract
    3. Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    4. ANPR accuracy


    1. Signage

    On the night in question, my car was driven to the Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet at the Peel Centre retail park in Stockport. Apart from the KFC, no other stores in the vicinity were open and the carpark itself was dark and unoccupied. Until recently parking at this location was free in the evenings and because the signs were so poorly lit, there was no clear indication that parking charges were in force.

    Excel Parking Services claims that their ‘signs are highly prominent and meet the requirements set by the British Parking Association guidelines’. I dispute this claim. At night, and in darkness, the signs are barely noticeable and the print impossible to read.

    2. Lack of contract

    I believe that Excel Parking Services has no contract with the land owner of the Peel Centre that gives them any authority to impose or issue these punitive charges. If they dispute this, I require them to produce a certified copy of the contract with the landowner which must be BPA CoP complaint. The contract must be dated before my alleged contravention and indicate that Excel Parking Services are authorised to form contracts with drivers and issue charges in their own name.

    3. Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

    Furthermore, I maintain that the charge of 100 is excessive and punitive and bears no reflection on the loss that would have been incurred by the landowner. The BPA Code of Practice states that the charge must be based on a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Considering the stores were mostly closed on the day and there were hardly any cars in the carpark at the time in question, I challenge Excel Parking Services to provide a detailed breakdown as to how the amount of 100 was arrived at. Costs of running the business may not be included in the pre-estimate of loss.

    4. ANPR accuracy

    My car was allegedly captured entering and leaving the carpark ANPR cameras. Private parking companies are required by the BPA to ensure that ANPR equipment is in working order. Given the darkness of the night, wholly reflected in the images sent to me along with the PCN, and that their entire case rests on these two very dark, almost black, images, I require Excel Parking Services present records indicating when the cameras were checked and maintained to ensure the accuracy of the images.

    On these grounds, I respectfully request that these charges be cancelled.

    Yours, etc.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Nov 13, 12:46 AM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    On the night in question, my car was driven to the
    Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet at the Peel Centre retail park in Stockport.
    I strongly suggest you read other Peel Centre threads by searching the forum, as I remember writing a fairly recent POPLA appeal about someone who parked in the KFC section. And the signage there is actually separate I think and as you CAN park at the KFC for 15 mins it's not a P&D area, so it could be argued that the entrance signs only apply to the P&D part of the car park. I recall working that argument into a POPLA appeal for someone a month or two ago, easily found by searching the forum for 'Peel' or 'KFC'.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • georgiascat
    excel parking fine ebbw vale`
    I had a 60 parking ticket fine notice through post from excel in July, in their first letter I got from them it did not say what I did exactly wrong, it just said in letter that I did not display a valid ticket.


    I appealed against it as I did keep my ticket and sent proof. their reply letter then stated, after reviewing the pay and display ticket I bought (so they admit I bought a ticket) but I did not put full registration number I only entered last 3 letters. and as a gesture of good will I will need to pay just 10 admin charge.


    I ignored this letter, then a few weeks later had a fine for 100 pounds, so I appealed again and challenged their decision, stating that.
    I had purchased a ticket and that they had no financial loss has I had paid, then I stated, why is it that if its your policy that a full Registration number must be entered, then why is it that your P&D machine accepted my last 3 Registration letters accepted my money and issued me a ticket, as you cant get a number plate with just letters or just numbers, there must be at least 1 letter and or 1 number in a registration number plate, I then said your machine should not have accepted just the input of the letters that I put in and should not have issued me a ticket, therefore your machine accepted the last 3 Reg letters, my money and issued me with a ticket unaware to me and believing I had a valid ticket. so I should not have had this penalty notice.
    I just received a letter this week time with no explanation from the appeal I wrote the letter just said can I pay just the 10 admin charge
    They could not give me a valid answer so do I appeal again or ignore letter, don't know what to do , any advise would be appreciated thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Nov 13, 8:41 AM
    • 22,795 Posts
    • 29,014 Thanks
    Redx
    I had a 60 parking ticket fine notice through post from excel in July, in their first letter I got from them it did not say what I did exactly wrong, it just said in letter that I did not display a valid ticket.


    I appealed against it as I did keep my ticket and sent proof. their reply letter then stated, after reviewing the pay and display ticket I bought (so they admit I bought a ticket) but I did not put full registration number I only entered last 3 letters. and as a gesture of good will I will need to pay just 10 admin charge.


    I ignored this letter, then a few weeks later had a fine for 100 pounds, so I appealed again and challenged their decision, stating that.
    I had purchased a ticket and that they had no financial loss has I had paid, then I stated, why is it that if its your policy that a full Registration number must be entered, then why is it that your P&D machine accepted my last 3 Registration letters accepted my money and issued me a ticket, as you cant get a number plate with just letters or just numbers, there must be at least 1 letter and or 1 number in a registration number plate, I then said your machine should not have accepted just the input of the letters that I put in and should not have issued me a ticket, therefore your machine accepted the last 3 Reg letters, my money and issued me with a ticket unaware to me and believing I had a valid ticket. so I should not have had this penalty notice.
    I just received a letter this week time with no explanation from the appeal I wrote the letter just said can I pay just the 10 admin charge
    They could not give me a valid answer so do I appeal again or ignore letter, don't know what to do , any advise would be appreciated thanks
    Originally posted by georgiascat
    first task is to use the BLUE "new thread" button and make a thread of your own to deal with your own case

    next task is read the "newbies start here" sticky thread and decide what to do next and then formulate a plan and ask about it in your own thread

    this thread is for dealing with the person who opened it correctly

    thanks
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • firefly72
    I strongly suggest you read other Peel Centre threads by searching the forum, as I remember writing a fairly recent POPLA appeal about someone who parked in the KFC section. And the signage there is actually separate I think and as you CAN park at the KFC for 15 mins it's not a P&D area, so it could be argued that the entrance signs only apply to the P&D part of the car park. I recall working that argument into a POPLA appeal for someone a month or two ago, easily found by searching the forum for 'Peel' or 'KFC'.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Okay, I'll give it another go later today. Thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Nov 13, 7:46 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You will find MORE THREADS when you search for the acronym 'KFC' which is mainly only mentioned re the Peel Centre - but for starters I found this one:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4805494&page=2

    That's just one of the cases I was thinking of - not at POPLA stage but where the OP used the initial (IMHO perfectly valid) appeal point that:

    ''The signs here allude to a maximum stay of 15 mins, but do not state the terms & conditions nor mention parking charges/breach of contract risk. And the entrance signs at the Peel Centre are not relevant to any contract at those KFC spaces either, because that area is not pay and display and simply is not covered by the t&cs for the rest of the car park. I am sure that POPLA and the BPA Ltd will agree that, where there is a specific 'non-Pay and Display area' for a takeaway or drive-thru within a P&D car park, then the parking company must clearly sign each separate area with full t&cs otherwise there simply is no enforceable contract created at all around the takeaway. A visitor cannot be left to guess as to any repercussions caused if delays in the KFC cause the visitors' car to remain in the specifically-free car park spaces for longer than the ridiculously short time period 'allowed'.''
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-11-2013 at 10:19 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • firefly72
    I have read the KFC/Peel threads and revised my POPLA appeal. I've tried not to cut and paste but to write my account in my own words. I hope this version looks/sounds better.

    ===
    Dear POPLA Assessor

    Verification code:
    Vehicle registration:
    PCN:
    PPC: Excel Parking Services Ltd.
    Alleged contravention date and time:
    Date of PCN:

    I am the registered keeper of the vehicle above and I am writing to appeal against recent parking charges issued to me by Excel Parking Services Ltd for allegedly parking without displaying a valid Pay & Display ticket. My appeal to the PPC was rejected in a letter dated 25 November 2013. I am appealing against the charges on the following grounds:

    Signage
    ANPR accuracy
    Lack of contract
    Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss


    On the night in question, my car was driven to the Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet at the Peel Centre retail park in Stockport. The KFC outlet has dedicated bays with signs indicating that customers were allowed to park for 15 minutes. There were no signs indicating that KFC customers are liable for payment charges from the point of entry into the main Peel carpark, which is the only entrance available to get to the KFC. There were also no signs indicating that ANPR technology would be used to capture this entry and applied to KFC customers as soon as they entered to make their way to the KFC, parked their cars in the allocated bays, order their food, wait for it to arrive and then get back into their cars to drive out of the main carpark and be captured by the cameras again. The use of ANPR technology in this manner amounts to unfair entrapment.

    The use of ANPR cameras by private parking companies are required by the BPA to ensure that ANPR equipment is in working order. Given the darkness of the night, wholly reflected in the images sent to me along with the PCN, and that their entire case rests on these two very dark, almost black, images, I require Excel Parking Services present records indicating when the cameras were checked and maintained to ensure the accuracy of the images.

    In addition, on the night and period in question, apart from the KFC, no other stores in the vicinity were open and the main carpark itself was dark and unoccupied. Until recently parking at this location was free in the evenings and because the signs were so poorly lit, there was no clear indication that parking charges were in force from the point of entry into the main carpark, even if drivers were not intending to use the main carpark and heading straight for the KFC. Excel Parking Services has not provided proof that my car was parked in the main carpark and not within the KFC bays.

    Excel Parking Services claims that their ‘signs are highly prominent and meet the requirements set by the British Parking Association guidelines’. I dispute this claim. At night, and in darkness, the signs are barely noticeable and the print impossible to read. And in any case, nothing in print or the terms and conditions applies to customers using the allocated bays at the KFC.

    To this degree, the driver cannot be said to have breached any contract with Excel Parking Services if there was no intention to park in the main carpark supposedly managed by Excel Parking Services. There cannot be an enforceable contract if there is a non-Pay-&-Display area within a Pay-&-Display carpark where differing terms and conditions apply, and where the parking company has not erected signs with full terms and conditions distinguishing the two separate areas. In my case, the alleged contravention of ‘parking without a ticket/permit’ simply did not occur.

    Furthermore, I maintain that the charge of 100 is excessive and punitive and bears no reflection on the loss that might have been incurred by the landowner, if at all. The BPA Code of Practice states that the charge must be based on a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Considering the stores were mostly closed on the day and there were hardly any cars in the carpark at the time in question, I challenge Excel Parking Services to provide a detailed breakdown as to how the amount of 100 was arrived at. Costs of running the business may not be included in the pre-estimate of loss.

    On these grounds, I respectfully request that these charges be cancelled and the appeal allowed.

    Yours, etc.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Dec 13, 10:12 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You have so far omitted the usual winning point about no standing/landowner contract. Have a close read of the links under 'how to win at POPLA' in the 'NEWBIES READ THIS FIRST!' thread near the top:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

    Also I think there's a lot more you can add to make your points clearer, such as actually quoting the BPA CoP (Which is also linked in the newbies thread). And have you compared your NTK to the POFA2012 paragraph 9 (also linked in the newbies thread!). Was the NTK received by day 15 after the parking event and is the wording exactly compliant with paragraph 9 as linked in the sticky?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • firefly72
    OK, back to the drawing board. I'll give it another go tonight. Thanks again.
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