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    • fb1969
    • By fb1969 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    • 484 Posts
    • 680 Thanks
    fb1969
    • #2
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    Not sure where you found the "numerous" threads as that has not been the advice for almost a year. Look at the main page of this board and you'll will see the current advice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    • 73,709 Posts
    • 85,849 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:12 PM
    Oh dear. No reassurance then because you have read OLD threads. You can appeal it if you are still within 28 days of receipt of the first letter (PCN).

    Why not just read the first 2 or 3 pages of current threads rather than old ones? We haven't advised to ignore PE for many, many months.

    No-one ignores these now unless in Scotland or NI because PE are SUING people who ignore their fake PCNs - and happily, we know how to appeal and win (but ONLY if you had acted in time)!

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 24-09-2013 at 3:15 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 24th Sep 13, 3:17 PM
    • 4,749 Posts
    • 6,218 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    • #4
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:17 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:17 PM
    Must have been on CAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • jeanraffio
    • #5
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:28 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Sep 13, 3:28 PM
    Great.

    So any advice on where to start, there's 100s of different links pointing off to things at the moment.

    I suppose first thing first, it wasn't me that was driving the car, it was my girlfriend who had borrowed my car. Can I let PE know this is the case, they can write to her and we can start the appeal procedure again? (I'm sure I saw this is in a thread but can't recall where).

    Thanks.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 24th Sep 13, 5:37 PM
    • 4,749 Posts
    • 6,218 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    • #6
    • 24th Sep 13, 5:37 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Sep 13, 5:37 PM
    Ignoring now is very poor advice although in your defence some forums are still advocating it.
    Even to the point of ignore them and if they do issue a claim then we will give you a magic defence to blow them out of the water.

    It now depends on how far along the ignore route you are but it seems you are at the debt collectors stage judging by the charge they are asking for.

    If they have met all the requirements of POFA then you will either hear no more other then a few debt collector letters, or you will receive a claim.

    Whatever you do do not give them anything by posting on here that will identify you.
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 24th Sep 13, 5:44 PM
    • 7,917 Posts
    • 8,408 Thanks
    Stroma
    • #7
    • 24th Sep 13, 5:44 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Sep 13, 5:44 PM
    Yes name your girlfriend to get this reset, you can do this at any stage up until they issue a claim, despite what they say! Once you've done that they must chase her then, so send it via email and snail mail with proof of postage from the post office.

    Once they are writing to her just come back to this thread on advice on the correct way to the first & second stage appeals that can be used, please don't start a new thread.
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
  • jeanraffio
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 13, 7:11 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 13, 7:11 AM
    Yes name your girlfriend to get this reset, you can do this at any stage up until they issue a claim, despite what they say! Once you've done that they must chase her then, so send it via email and snail mail with proof of postage from the post office.

    Once they are writing to her just come back to this thread on advice on the correct way to the first & second stage appeals that can be used, please don't start a new thread.
    Originally posted by Stroma
    Hi

    I duly followed the advice above, naming my girlfriend (both sent by email and snail mail). They have now responded to this and said that as per Section 56 and Schedule 4 of the Freedoms Protection 2012 act, because I didn't supply the name within 28 days that I am now liable (as registered keeper) for the fine and any potential court action.

    This can't be true can it? They have stated that they will enter in no further correspondence about it.

    Can anyone suggest the next step??
    • jkdd77
    • By jkdd77 8th Oct 13, 7:38 AM
    • 267 Posts
    • 348 Thanks
    jkdd77
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 13, 7:38 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 13, 7:38 AM
    They're lying (and engaging in a misleading commercial practice). So long as you name the driver, and give his/her address, prior to formal court action, you have discharged your liability as RK under Schedule 4.

    My advice is to appeal to POPLA (if within the timescale, which sounds unlikely), or else to ignore everything except stamped court papers.
    Last edited by jkdd77; 08-10-2013 at 7:40 AM.
  • jeanraffio
    They're lying (and engaging in a misleading commercial practice). So long as you name the driver, and give his/her address, prior to formal court action, you have discharged your liability as RK under Schedule 4.

    My advice is to appeal to POPLA (if within the timescale, which sounds unlikely), or else to ignore everything except stamped court papers.
    Originally posted by jkdd77
    Looking at legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted Paragraph 5 (1)(b) and the associated note with it, they may be correct?
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 8th Oct 13, 9:03 AM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    Looking at legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted Paragraph 5 (1)(b) and the associated note with it, they may be correct?
    Originally posted by jeanraffio
    That's what they WANT you to think, but that's not what it says.

    In Plain English, it says that the PPC must give the RK at least 28 days to name the driver, and after that the PPC *MAY* start court proceedings against the RK to enforce the charge.

    But PoFA also says that the PPC can only pursue the RK if it does not know the identity of the driver. So if at any time before the PPC seeks to rely on Para 5 to issue court proceedings against RK, the RK identifies the driver and provides an address for service, then the PPC MUST pursue the driver.

    I suggest you send THESE letters:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    TO PE

    NAME
    ADDRESS

    DATE

    For the personal attention of [Text removed by MSE Forum Team], Supervising Solicitor


    Dear [Text removed by MSE Forum Team]

    PCN ref xxxxxxxxx
    Vehicle reg no XXXXXXXX


    I am writing to make a formal complaint about your company's cynical manipulation and misinterpretation of the law as set out at Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    Specifically:

    By a letter dated [date] I informed your company of the name and and address for service of the driver of the above vehicle on the date that the 'parking event' is alleged to have taken place.

    On [date] your company replied in writing referring me to the provisions of POFA 2012 and advising me that as I did not supply the driver's details within 28 days of the PCN, I am now personally liable for the charge. The letter also threatened court action against me in my capacity of Registered Keeper.

    I find it impossible to believe that, as a Solicitor and head of the company's Legal Department, you are unaware of the provisions of POFA 2012. I am therefore forced to the reluctant conclusion that you have sanctioned this dishonest interpretation of the law by your company, for its own ends.

    It seems ridiculous that I, as an ordinary member of the public with no legal training, should have to explain the law to a Solicitor. However, in simple terms, the position is:

    1 Contrary to the misinformation contained in your company's letter to me, Schedule 4 of POFA, para 5 does NOT provide that the Registered Keeper loses the right to identify the driver after 28 days. Rather it provides that the private parking company *may* enforce the charge against the Registered Keeper after 28 days if s/he has not identified the driver

    2 Your company failed to exercise the right to enforce against the Registered Keeper when it had the opportunity to do so

    3 As your company now knows the driver's name and an address for service, it has lost the right to enforce the charge against the Registered Keeper and must now pursue the driver

    4 Any subsequent proceedings that may be issued against me will be defended accordingly, and an application to strike out made on the basis that your company has no cause of action against me.

    I trust that I have made myself clear, however for the avoidance of doubt, please note that any further contact from your company will be considered harassment and appropriate steps will be taken pursuant to the provisions of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

    You may also wish to advise your client that I have made a formal complaint to BPA and DVLA concerning your breach of the BPA Code of Practice.

    Yours faithfully

    PRINT NAME

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Letter to: David Metcalf, Operations Manager, British Parking Association
    Fax: 01444 454 105
    Email: david.m@britishparking.co.uk



    FORMAL COMPLAINT AGAINST BPA MEMBER PARKINGEYE LTD concerning serious breaches of POFA 2012 and BPA Code of Practice

    Dear Mr Metcalf

    PCN ref xxxxxxxxx
    Vehicle reg no XXXXXXXX


    I am the Registered Keeper of the above mentioned vehicle.

    I wish to make a formal complaint about ParkingEye Ltd in respect of its clear breach of POFA 2012 schedule 4, para 5, and the guidance set out in the BPA Code of Practice.

    On [date] I discharged my liability under POFA 2012 by identifying the driver of the vehicle on the day in question to ParkingEye, in writing, together with an address for service.

    On [date] ParkingEye advised me that, under POFA 2012, I had lost my right to identify the driver and am now legally liable for the charge as the Registered Keeper.

    I attach a copy of your member's letter to me dated [date] and my reply of today's date, for your information.

    I would be grateful if you would investigate this complaint as a matter of extreme urgency, as ParkingEye is refusing to pursue the driver, and is threatening to start legal action against myself, as Registered Keeper of the vehicle.

    Yours etc

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Letter to david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk


    Dear Mr Dunford

    PCN ref xxxxxxxxx
    Vehicle reg no XXXXXXXX


    I wish to make a formal complaint about ParkingEye Ltd concerning a serious breach of the POFA 2012 and the BPA Code of Practice.

    I enclose a copy of my letter to BPA of today's date, the contents of which are self explanatory.

    I am appalled that this company is able to access the details of Registered Keepers from the DVLA data base when it is clearly using those details for unlawful means. I trust that you will take immediate action to stop this practice.

    Yours etc

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 02-05-2014 at 9:01 PM.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • jeanraffio
    Great response - very useful and many thanks. I will send these letters by both email and post and obtain proof of posting. Is there anything else I should be doing at this point?

    The whole tone of hiding behind misinterpreted legislation that can only be solved by paying a cash fee is disgusting - akin to obtaining monies through deception and /or fear tactics.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Oct 13, 12:02 PM
    • 73,709 Posts
    • 85,849 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, the other thing you can do is complain - especially if this was a Retail or Leisure 'customer car park' where you spent money:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249

    It is never too late to complain even if you have no receipt. Cases have been quashed by retailers, cinemas, hotels, and landowners even after PE have actually issued court papers.

    And you lose nothing by complaining even if the Retailers/landowner is useless (escalate the complaint to the CEO though). Every complaint will be remembered when it comes to the contract with PE being renewed...or not. Ultimate revenge!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • jeanraffio
    Yes, the other thing you can do is complain - especially if this was a Retail or Leisure 'customer car park' where you spent money:


    It is never too late to complain even if you have no receipt. Cases have been quashed by retailers, cinemas, hotels, and landowners even after PE have actually issued court papers.

    And you lose nothing by complaining even if the Retailers/landowner is useless (escalate the complaint to the CEO though). Every complaint will be remembered when it comes to the contract with PE being renewed...or not. Ultimate revenge!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yes I'll be doing that with girlfriend when PE rectify the fact that it wasn't me that was driving the vehicle at the time! Get all the facts straight and complain to Morrisons and to POPLA.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Oct 13, 12:37 PM
    • 73,709 Posts
    • 85,849 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Oooh, Morrisons, the CEO should step in anyway based on past experience on this forum. So you could even email him now (see the top thread which shows a successful Morrisons complaint and the email address of the CEO). I would just fire off a complaint anyway - you will see from the thread I mention that I wrote a stinking complaint email about Parking Eye, for him, which worked in a week!

    All you need do is follow the style and some of the wording of that sort of complaint, and the whole thing will be cancelled by next week.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 8th Oct 13, 12:50 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    Don't wait until you hear from PE - COMPLAIN to the CEO of Morrisons at the same time - he may well contact PE and combined with your letter to PE this may be the tipping point in getting the charge cancelled. Do it NOW.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • jeanraffio
    Great stuff, I shall be collating all these letters tonight when I get home from work ready to send / email tomorrow!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Oct 13, 1:26 PM
    • 73,709 Posts
    • 85,849 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great stuff, I shall be collating all these letters tonight when I get home from work ready to send / email tomorrow!
    Originally posted by jeanraffio

    Use the specific Morrisons 'angry complaint' example linked in the top sticky thread, and just remove the Equality Act stuff. You will still be left with a strongly-worded complaint about this. Email it to the CEO and Bob's your Uncle.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • jeanraffio
    Just a quick question whilst I am putting these letters together, is it best to address the letter to PE to [Text removed by MSE Forum Team] direct? Or will this further complicate and delay matters? Or should I address it simply to the Legal Department?

    Thanks
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 02-05-2014 at 9:02 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Oct 13, 6:11 PM
    • 73,709 Posts
    • 85,849 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Address it to [Text removed by MSE Forum Team] then she will know you have forum help which is a good thing for you...
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 02-05-2014 at 9:02 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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