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  • FIRST POST
    xlator
    Parking Eye Charge Notice
    • #1
    • 20th Sep 13, 12:22 PM
    Parking Eye Charge Notice 20th Sep 13 at 12:22 PM
    I hve received a Parking Charge Notice from Parking Eye relating to a pay and display car park. The parking fees were as follows:

    • Up to 1 hour: 1.80
    • Up to 2 hours: 3
    • Up to 4 hours: 5
    We intended to pay for 4 hours, but only put 4.50 in the machine by mistake instead of 5. We stayed for just over 3 hours and have been hit with a charge notice.


    In my estimation, we actually paid more than we should have done for our stay, but didn't fall into the 4-hour "band" because we accidentally underpaid by 50p. I still have the parking ticket to prove what we paid (and therefore our intention to pay the full amount - why would we have paid 4.50 otherwise?!).


    I'm happy to contact them and offer to pay the 50p difference, not the 60/100 they are demanding. Are they likely to be willing to accept this or will I be going down the POPLA route? If so, is this any sort of valid defence or should I use the standard (and successful) defences that have been used recently against them (P.S. I've read the forums in detail).


    Thanks!
Page 1
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 20th Sep 13, 12:34 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 13, 12:34 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 13, 12:34 PM
    First, well done for reading the forums and being prepared.

    Second - can you provide some further info as follows please:

    1 does the registered keeper (or driver if different) live in Scotland or NI, or did the alleged parking even take place in Scotland or NI?
    2 is this a company car or a lease / hire car?
    Did you get a windscreen ticket or a Notice to Keeper - probably called a Parking Charge Notice (PCN)? ( a PCN would come through the post with pretty pictures of your car)
    3 date of parking event
    4 date of first letter through the post

    When you have given this information just hang fire as I am stuck at home with no gas, heating, hot water, or cooking facilities waiting for an 'emergency' boiler call out to mend a gas leak at the boiler which has resulted in the gas supply being disconnected at the meter ... and which 'may be tomorrow madam as we are very busy'. I don't think so!!!!!

    And I fancy tearing a strip off someone and PE kinda fits the bill!!!

    So yes, lets have some fun with the 50p. I'll draft you a letter when you have come back with the info requested above.

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • xlator
    • #3
    • 20th Sep 13, 12:42 PM
    • #3
    • 20th Sep 13, 12:42 PM
    Hi Daisy,

    Thanks for your reply!

    Answers below:

    1 does the registered keeper (or driver if different) live in Scotland or NI, or did the alleged parking even take place in Scotland or NI?

    => registered keeper (driver) lives in England, car park is in England

    2 is this a company car or a lease / hire car?

    => no, privately owned

    Did you get a windscreen ticket or a Notice to Keeper - probably called a Parking Charge Notice (PCN)? ( a PCN would come through the post with pretty pictures of your car)

    => PCN through the post

    3 date of parking event

    => 25/08/13

    4 date of first letter through the post

    => 29/08/13

    i.e. to appeal within 28 days I need to respond by 26/09/13



    Thanks!!
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 20th Sep 13, 1:41 PM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 13, 1:41 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 13, 1:41 PM
    Okay, that's great. I'll be back shortly with a letter for you.

    In the meantime, was this car park a service for customers of a retailer or retail park (if so which one?), and if so do you have receipts. Even if you don't have receipts, have you contacted the retailer(s) to ask them to get the charge cancelled?

    D
    Last edited by zzzLazyDaisy; 20-09-2013 at 1:49 PM.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • xlator
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 13, 3:04 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 13, 3:04 PM
    Hi Daisy,

    The car park was a public car park (operated by the local council) in a small rural village/beauty spot. Popular with tourists. Not linked to a specific outlet or retailer.

    Thanks again!
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 20th Sep 13, 3:20 PM
    • 7,917 Posts
    • 8,408 Thanks
    Stroma
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 13, 3:20 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 13, 3:20 PM
    Have you found out who owns the car park ? Have you made any complaints to them ? Is it a retail park or shop like tesco ?

    Thanks
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 21st Sep 13, 12:05 PM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 13, 12:05 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 13, 12:05 PM
    Hi Daisy,

    The car park was a public car park (operated by the local council) in a small rural village/beauty spot. Popular with tourists. Not linked to a specific outlet or retailer.

    Thanks again!
    Originally posted by xlator
    Okay, in that case:

    Telephone the local council (or look on the website) and get the contact details for the department that deals with parking. Then send them a cheque for 50p with the first letter below (please leave the letter up for bit before sending so other regulars can comment).

    But don't run out of time - you do still also need to send an appeal to Parking Eye. See second letter below (send it to the normal appeal address, and to PE's legal department)

    Come back when you have a response

    Daisy


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dear ........

    Re Parking incident at [insert location] car park on [insert date]
    Vehicle registration number xxxxx


    I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am writing to complain about a parking charge issued by your agents, ParkingEye Ltd in respect of an alleged [overstay? what 'offence' does it say on the PCN?] at [location] on [date].

    The situation was that the driver was confused by the signs and, intending to pay for 4 hours, inserted 4.50 into the ticket machine (the actual fee being 5). I wish to make it clear that this was a genuine error by the driver, and there was certainly no intention to underpay. In fact, as you can see from the enclosed Parking Charge Notice, the vehicle was in fact only in the car park for a total period of three hours and xxx minutes.

    Whilst I have no objection at all to reimbursing the [xxxxnamexxx] council for the loss of 50p parking revenue occasioned by the driver's mistake, I do consider a penalty of 60 (rising to 100 if not paid within xxx days) to be unfair and grossly disproportionate to the offence. Accordingly I am enclosing with this letter a cheque in the sum of 50p by way of recompense for the loss of parking revenue, to enable the council to mitigate its loss at this early stage.

    In the circumstances described above, I request that you instruct your agent to cancel the charge on this occasion.

    I enclose for your attention copies of the parking ticket showing the sum paid, and the Parking Charge Notice.

    I thank you in advance of your assistance in this matter, and look forward to receiving your positive response shortly.

    Yours.....


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Letter to Parking Eye
    LEGAL DEPARTMENT

    For the personal attention of Rachel Ledson


    Dear Ms Ledson

    Formal Appeal against Parking Charge Number xxxxxx

    I am addressing this appeal to you, for your personal attention, in your capacity of Senior Solicitor of your client's Legal Department, as I am somewhat concerned that the staff in your client's Appeals Department may not have sufficient understanding of the law relating to mitigation of loss, upon which this appeal is based.

    I am the Registered Keeper of vehicle registration number xxxx, and this appeal relates to an alleged parking offence at [xxlocationxx] on [xxdatexx]

    The facts are that the driver of the vehicle on the day in question was confused by the signs and, intending to pay for 4 hours, inserted 4.50 into the ticket machine (the actual fee being 5). I enclose a copy of the parking ticket purchased, for your information.

    I wish to make it clear that this was a genuine error by the driver, and there was certainly no intention to underpay. In fact, as you can see from the Parking Charge Notice, the vehicle was in fact only in the car park for a total period of three hours and xxx minutes.

    I have no objection at all to reimbursing your client's Principal [xxxxnamexxx] Council for the loss of 50p parking revenue occasioned by the driver's mistake. Accordingly, I have already forwarded to your Principal a cheque in the sum of 50p by way of recompense for the loss of parking revenue, to enable it to comply with its duty to mitigate its loss at this early stage. I enclose a copy of the said cheque for your information.

    Further and in any event, I consider your client's demand for 60 (rising to 100 if not paid within xxx days) to be totally unreasonable and grossly disproportionate to the Principal's loss and cannot in any way, shape, or form, be considered to be a 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' incurred by an accidental underpayment of 50p. I am sure that, as a Solicitor of the Supreme Court, you are fully aware that it is the landowner's losses that are the focus of any argument around 'genuine pre-estimate of loss', and that in any event there can be no claim for costs of the business which are tax deductible when assessing loss for these purposes. In this regard, I respectfully refer you the many POPLA decisions that have gone against your client on this point.

    In all the circumstances described above I invite you, as supervising solicitor, to instruct your staff to uphold this appeal and cancel the charge.

    If your client declines to cancel the charge, please forward a verification code in order that I might make a formal appeal to POPLA regarding this matter.

    I trust that this will not be necessary and I look forward to receiving your client's positive response within 35 days of the date of this letter.

    Yours .........
    Last edited by zzzLazyDaisy; 21-09-2013 at 12:26 PM.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 13, 6:23 PM
    • 76,597 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 13, 6:23 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 13, 6:23 PM
    I am confused because I know of no Council car parks where PE exist. They never act for Councils.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 21st Sep 13, 7:20 PM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 13, 7:20 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 13, 7:20 PM
    I am confused because I know of no Council car parks where PE exist. They never act for Councils.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Looks like we need clarification before any letters are sent....
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
    • DollyDee
    • By DollyDee 22nd Sep 13, 8:17 AM
    • 750 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    DollyDee
    OP probably did pay 5.00 - PE's machines are faulty.

    We paid 4.80 at Tower Road, Newquay, but the ticket was for 4.30. We got the 50 pence coin out of the machine when we pressed the button to return coins AFTER the ticket had been printed, however, as it had not dropped through at the time we did not know the 50 pence had not registered.
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 22nd Sep 13, 8:32 AM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    Interesting - another point for OP to clarify and possibly make use of.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • xlator
    Hi,

    Apologies for the radio silence on my part, I was away last week.

    On futher investigation, I found that the car park was operated not by a local council but by a National Park Authority.

    I sent off the 50p cheque along with the letter to the authority, and the other letter to Parking Eye as advised.

    I have today received a reply (not signed by anyone) from PE claiming that I informed them that I was not the driver, and that I didn't tell them who the driver was. Having re-read the letter, I didn't explicitly say that I WAS the driver, but nor did I say that I WASN'T the driver.

    Any thoughts?

    They're clearly trying to do me on a technicality.

    I haven't seen the letter (my wife opened it at home) - will post their reply in full this evening when I get home.

    Thanks again for your help!
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 30th Sep 13, 2:25 PM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    Thanks for getting back to us. It will be interesting to see PE's letter.

    Just to be clear:

    Under POFA 2012
    • you ARE entitled to deal with this matter as the RK
    • you are NOT required to identify the driver
    • PE is NOT entitled to demand that you identify the driver
    • PE is NOT entitled to refuse to deal with your appeal as RK
    • If PE does pull those stunts they ARE in the firing line for a complaint to BPA & DVLA



    hth

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • xlator
    Hi Daisy,

    So here's the latest:

    - I received a letter from the National Park Authority concerned informing me that "under the circumstances" they have instructed Parking Eye to cancel the parking charge notice.... They are yet to cash the 50p cheque, but the tactic was a winner... victory!!!

    - I'm not done with Parking Eye yet though. In light of your guidance in your last post, I've posted below the exact wording of the letter I received from them:

    "You have stated that you were not the driver of the vehicle at the date and time of the breach of the terms and conditions of the car park, but you have not indicated who was.

    You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that that driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the driver's name or current postal address, if you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address.

    You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date Issued), the Parking Charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you, the registered keeper. This warning is given to you under paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of that Act.
    "

    Apart from the appalling English, syntax errors and inconsistent capitalisation (I'm a professional writer and translator so I can't help but baulk at poor English...), their assertions are also inaccurate.

    I did NOT tell them that I wasn't the driver. I just didn't tell them who was. I specifically said that I was the registered keeper.

    So... are they breaking any rules? If so, I'd love to drag them across the coals for this...

    Let's have some more "fun" with them :-)
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 14th Oct 13, 11:27 AM
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    First, well done for getting the charge cancelled by the landowner. You just earned yourself a place in Coupon's Hall of Fame!!!

    Interesting to note that enclosing a cheque to the landowner and emphasising the duty to mitigate might have had some influence.

    Second, re PE's letter - I don't like the way this para is phrased

    You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that that driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the driver's name or current postal address, if you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address.

    As, on its own, it could be read as saying that your are required to disclose the driver's details under POFA.

    However, when read in conjunction with the next para, it does then clarify that if you choose not to disclose the driver's identity, then liability rests with you, as the RK, which is correct.

    So although I don't like to admit it, I reckon they are just about on the right side of the line here. But wait and see what the other regulars say about this.

    Daisy
    Last edited by zzzLazyDaisy; 14-10-2013 at 11:35 AM.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
    • Stroma
    • By Stroma 14th Oct 13, 12:04 PM
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    • 8,408 Thanks
    Stroma
    I don't think its right as they are saying the driver must basically pay, but that suggests that there is no appeals process for the driver.
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
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