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  • FIRST POST
    oneyey
    Help with Popla appeal against PE
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 13, 11:49 AM
    Help with Popla appeal against PE 9th Sep 13 at 11:49 AM
    Hi,

    I wonder if anyone could help me with a Popla appeal against a PE charge? I'm new to this forum, though I did look through lots of the posts before my original appeal to PE which was of course rejected. My ticket is for an overstay in a free supermarket car park. I disagree with the charge because it is so much - 85 for a short overstay in a free car park! Had they levied a more reasonable charge I would've paid it but 85 seems unjust to me. There were mitigating circumstances on the day, though I understand that these might not help me with Popla so I have no real idea how to word an appeal and the whole thing has me v worried and stressed

    Any help or advice would be really appreciated.
    Last edited by oneyey; 09-09-2013 at 12:13 PM.
Page 1
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 9th Sep 13, 12:17 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 13, 12:17 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 13, 12:17 PM
    Did you get a POPLA code with the PE rejection letter?

    If so, when does the 28 days expire?

    Also, were you a genuine customer at the supermarket, and have you been back to explain what happened and asked the manager to cancel the parking ticket? If not, then do so as they do have the power to cancel the ticket in these circumstances.

    Similarly - do you have receipts or proof of purchase such as credit card statement and if so did you send copies with your appeal to PE as they can and do cancel charges in that situation.

    With regard to the POPLA appeal - I suggest that you look at the POPLA Decisions thread at the top of this forum. If you read through the most recent pages you will quickly get an idea of how to word a POPLA appeal, and what arguments win at POPLA. If you put the name of the supermarket + the PPC into the search box above, this should also give you loads of hits.

    You then need to prepare a draft POPLA appeal based on your research (don't cut and paste as it still needs to relate to your own circumstances).

    When you have got that far, post it on here and people will help you to finalise it.

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • oneyey
    • #3
    • 9th Sep 13, 12:42 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Sep 13, 12:42 PM
    Thanks for this Daisy. I do have a popla code, it runs out at the end of the month so I have time. I don't have any receipts, I was a genuine customer on the day in question though not for the whole time I was parked. The reason I overstayed was that I had no idea there was a two hour limit. I did mention this in my original appeal, along with the fact that the signs are very small and high making them difficult to read.

    I did call the manager of the supermarket (don't know if it might be worth a visit in person?), he was sympathetic but said the matter was out of his hands and that I had to go through the appeals process.

    I've just been looking on a website about Popla appeals that seems to suggest the grounds for appealing are very limited so I don't know that I have chance in my instance. I will do as suggested though and look at some of the other threads.
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 9th Sep 13, 1:01 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #4
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:01 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:01 PM
    Thanks for this Daisy. I do have a popla code, it runs out at the end of the month so I have time. I don't have any receipts, I was a genuine customer on the day in question though not for the whole time I was parked. The reason I overstayed was that I had no idea there was a two hour limit. I did mention this in my original appeal, along with the fact that the signs are very small and high making them difficult to read.

    I did call the manager of the supermarket (don't know if it might be worth a visit in person?), he was sympathetic but said the matter was out of his hands and that I had to go through the appeals process.

    I've just been looking on a website about Popla appeals that seems to suggest the grounds for appealing are very limited so I don't know that I have chance in my instance. I will do as suggested though and look at some of the other threads.
    Originally posted by oneyey
    Which supermarket was it? Some are more helpful than others, and it will probably be worth taking your complaint higher up.

    Re the website - you may well have been looking at POPLA's own website, or some other information put on-line by the parking industry to deter you.

    The fact is that POPLA regularly uphold appeals on the 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' point put it in the search box at the top of the page, and have a look at posts by Guy's Dad on this point.

    Then there is the contract point ( they must have authority from the landowner to levy charges and pursue proceedings - challenge them to produce their contract proving this)

    Then there are challenges to their the signage....

    As strange as it might sound, the presence or absence of mitigating circumstances are irrelevant - it is challenges to the PPCs breaches of the law that win appeals.

    With one exception - if the mitigating circumstances relate to a disabled, elderly or a person with a chronic long term medical condition, or a pregnant or breastfeeding woman, then the Equality Act 2010 is relevant, so do tell us if that is the case.
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • kirkbyinfurnesslad
    • #5
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:16 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:16 PM
    oneyey, dont bother with anything "that happened on the day"

    Simply go along, pre estimate of loss and lack of contract, base your appeal round those points and you are on to a winner,

    As advised they do mitigation,

    When you select the reason why you are appealing you choose "not liable for this charge"
  • oneyey
    • #6
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:29 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:29 PM
    Which supermarket was it? Some are more helpful than others, and it will probably be worth taking your complaint higher up.

    Re the website - you may well have been looking at POPLA's own website, or some other information put on-line by the parking industry to deter you.

    The fact is that POPLA regularly uphold appeals on the 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' point put it in the search box at the top of the page, and have a look at posts by Guy's Dad on this point.

    Then there is the contract point ( they must have authority from the landowner to levy charges and pursue proceedings - challenge them to produce their contract proving this)

    Then there are challenges to their the signage....

    As strange as it might sound, the presence or absence of mitigating circumstances are irrelevant - it is challenges to the PPCs breaches of the law that win appeals.

    With one exception - if the mitigating circumstances relate to a disabled, elderly or a person with a chronic long term medical condition, or a pregnant or breastfeeding woman, then the Equality Act 2010 is relevant, so do tell us if that is the case.
    Originally posted by zzzLazyDaisy
    It was Morrisons, you're right perhaps taking the matter higher would help.

    As it happens I am a breastfeeding mother and this was part of the reason for the delayed return to the car, along with my sister in law going into labor and being left with her two small children to look after! Not as dramatic as it sounds, but if you think it is worth mentioning the breastfeeding aspect then let me know.
  • kirkbyinfurnesslad
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:37 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:37 PM
    It was Morrisons, you're right perhaps taking the matter higher would help.

    As it happens I am a breastfeeding mother and this was part of the reason for the delayed return to the car, along with my sister in law going into labor and being left with her two small children to look after! Not as dramatic as it sounds, but if you think it is worth mentioning the breastfeeding aspect then let me know.
    Originally posted by oneyey
    No, even though its a worthy comment, it wont wash with POPLA. so simply rely contract/loss , the breast feeding bit wont be considered in popla world.

    However definitely complain to Morrisons, very strongly worded letters to head office, advise you were breast feeding, they should cancel it and you may get a voucher if you word it right
  • spacey2012
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:39 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:39 PM
    Just to point out POPLA use "BPA Law", a bunch of rules made up by the parking scammers themselves.
    Be happy...
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 9th Sep 13, 1:39 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
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    zzzLazyDaisy
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:39 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 13, 1:39 PM
    Coupon-mad is the forum's Equality Act Queen!

    She will be along later (probably at silly o'clock in the morning) and she will point you in the right direction for info on EA protection for breastfeeding mums.

    On a more practical point - I would also hold off contacting Morrison's head office until you have C-M's input.

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 9th Sep 13, 2:44 PM
    • 10,852 Posts
    • 10,334 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    You will win, no question. It is just a matter of what route.

    Least painful is if Morrison get it cancelled and you go I person to the manager threatening to involve head office if he is reluctant mentioning feeding baby and your equality rights. But as well you get an appeal based on feeding junior to the PPC and hope for a cancellation but settling for a POPLA code. Then you come back here.
  • oneyey
    Thanks guys, I will see what Coupon-Mad says about how best to approach. All the advice so far has been really helpful though, don't feel quite as stressed about it for a start.
  • kirkbyinfurnesslad
    Thanks guys, I will see what Coupon-Mad says about how best to approach. All the advice so far has been really helpful though, don't feel quite as stressed about it for a start.
    Originally posted by oneyey
    Yes wait for C-M , she is bogged down at the moment but should be along sometime, she will help you go after Morrisons
  • oneyey
    Does anyone know how I get in touch with Coupon -Mad, can I email them directly?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Sep 13, 8:32 PM
    • 23,790 Posts
    • 38,095 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Does anyone know how I get in touch with Coupon -Mad, can I email them directly?
    Originally posted by oneyey
    Please wait for C-M to respond on here. C-M gives masses amounts of time to almost every thread on the forum (and on Pepipoo). I'm sure if C-M wants to take correspondence by PM, this will be made clear via posts here.

    Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt, but if everyone starts PMing and requiring 'private' attention the whole system starts to break down, regulars just get bombarded and PM 'In Boxes' get jammed and locked.

    See the forum more of an NHS provision rather than BUPA and you should be OK
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Sep 13, 9:00 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,961 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Does anyone know how I get in touch with Coupon -Mad, can I email them directly?
    Originally posted by oneyey

    I keep my pm box full at the moment as we are still coping as a family with a recent bereavement, sadly, so I have a lot on my plate. I'm here looking back through threads now and here is a suggested letter/email of complaint to the CEO of Morrisons (adapt it if I got any details wrong):


    '' Dear Sir/Madam,

    OFFICIAL COMPLAINT: BREACH OF EQUALITY ACT 2010 INVOLVING INDIRECT SEX DISCRIMINATION BY PARKING EYE, AS AGENTS FOR MORRISONS
    I am forced to make an official complaint to you because the actions of your agent are unlawful and your local Store Manager seems incapable of understanding that Morrisons are jointly and severally liable for those actions. The situation is that Parking Eye have just refused my appeal against a private 'parking ticket' sent to me in their capacity as your agents, which alleged my car 'overstayed' in a Morrisons car park.

    The fact is that I was delayed due to needing to breastfeed my baby and I was with my sister-in-law who was actually in labour during our visit to this car park and shopping centre. We were genuine shoppers with two other small children with us and we had a legitimate and lawful reason to take longer than other customers.

    I am very upset about this entire episode and both families are horrified that Morrisons can allow such a notorious firm to harass customers on your behalf. I do not have my receipt now because I paid cash and discarded my receipt as normal, since I had no idea about any 2 hour limit - or indeed any possibility of getting a 'parking ticket' - until I was suddenly sent an 85 demand by your agents, Parking Eye.

    I have researched the matter and intend to escalate my challenge against Parking Eye to the independent stage (Parking on Private Land Appeals). However, I am giving Morrisons the chance to quash the fake PCN once and for all because I feel you need to know that you and your agents are breaking the law by not making 'reasonable adjustments' of parking time. I have since become aware that in some other car parks, apparently Parking Eye allow double time for some disabled visitors in an attempt to pay regard to the effects of the EA. And yet this is not the case in every car park, and strangely, an adjustment of time is neither communicated nor extended to other disabled people, nor breastfeeding mothers, pregnant nor elderly customers who are also protected under the EA. As such, in this car park where no 'reasonable adjustments' appear to have been made at all, Morrisons are allowing their agent to enforce an arbitrary time limit which is unlawful under the EA.

    It is a breach because such a blanket policy has the effect of indirect discrimination against people with 'protected characteristics'. As well as a breach of the maternity provision of the EA - which is indirect sex discrimination, as applies in my case - this policy also discriminates against disabled and elderly people.

    I require this 'parking ticket' to be cancelled of course and would be interested to hear what steps Morrisons are going to take to review and adjust this discriminatory policy. For your information, there is no lawful excuse in the EA for such a blanket policy as an inflexible time limit, even if the intention is not to discriminate. Service providers have a legal duty to make 'reasonable adjustments' up front and all policies affecting customers and staff must have regard to the EA. To comply with the Act, policies must be anticipatory of the needs of people with protected characteristics. It is not enough to just react to individual complaints like mine, after the event.

    Notwithstanding what Parking Eye may well have to say on the matter, no doubt involving spin about their firm 'being members of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme' (in reality, merely trade body 'club membership' which enables them to buy registered keeper data and certainly does not 'regulate' their industry) I would also respectfully suggest that Morrisons would be well advised to pay urgent heed to the 'Equality Act Code of Practice on Services, Public Functions and Associations' which became law on 6th April 2011. This statutory guidance is available as a link on the Equality & Human Rights Commission website.

    In my view, Morrisons should research the matter and heed my warning about their association with Parking Eye before customers start suing over these breaches.

    Before renewing your contract with Parking Eye when the time comes, might I just suggest you take time to read and digest the implications to other Supermarkets & customers, and the picture painted of Parking Eye's aggressive business practices, as set out in the full court judgment for 'Parking Eye v Somerfield - Case No: A3/2011/0909'. I would also suggest researching the current debacle unfolding over the past 4 months on the Aldi facebook page, which is currently littered with customer complaints about Parking Eye who are actually suing Supermarket customers for 'transgressions' just like my own situation. Morrisons should consider themselves lucky that the most adverse publicity, now that Parking Eye have become so litigious that I believe well over a thousand people have received court papers in 2013, has so far focussed mainly on a rival Supermarket. It seems that the big Supermarkets, blinded by the idea of 'parking management for free' have fallen for the spiel of a dominant company whose agenda is profit alone. It is not 'parking management' to have ANPR cameras on site and yet no attendants to help customers find spaces and no checks made of disabled bays, for example.

    My view is that ostensibly 'free' ANPR enforcement of parking spaces by third parties is incompatible with the customer service ethic of Morrisons.

    Our whole family and friends are minded not to return to Morrisons if this is how genuine customers - especially breastfeeding mothers and pregnant visitors - are treated. I think I deserve an apology at the very least, and I would sincerely hope that Morrisons' CEO will treat this matter with more importance and urgency than the Store Manager did when I telephoned. Clearly I have better things to do with my time than research equality law, but it has proved necessary because it seems that your agents have failed in this regard and that Morrisons have allowed this agent 'carte blanche' regarding enforcement of an inflexible policy that has potential to break laws. You should be aware that, if this is pursued further I will seriously consider a small claim against both parties (Morrisons & Parking Eye) for damages for distress and indirect sex discrimination, supported by the Maternity protection within the Equality Act 2010.

    yours,


    your name


    (and add your Parking Eye ticket reference/number from the first 'PCN' and the car park name, NOT the POPLA code as that means nowt to Morrisons)
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-09-2013 at 10:33 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Sep 13, 9:18 PM
    • 73,762 Posts
    • 85,961 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just to add, the email contact details for the CEO of Morrisons were shown on this memorable thread last year:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4303567

    If anyone knows if Dalton Philips is still the CEO I suspect this will be easily sorted out by email now.

    And as to the POPLA appeal if you need to do it, maybe wait and see till next week or so what Morrisons come back with - as long as you are sure your POPLA code is in date (only valid for 28 days from date of rejection letter).

    Life is too short to work on a POPLA appeal when you have a young baby - I have had 4 myself so excuse me if I say 'been there, done that'! - but do come back here if you do not get the thing cancelled within the time limit of the POPLA code of course, as you will have no choice but to send a POPLA appeal (we can help) if Morrisons aren't helpful.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-09-2013 at 9:21 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • zzzLazyDaisy
    • By zzzLazyDaisy 10th Sep 13, 10:30 PM
    • 12,134 Posts
    • 18,762 Thanks
    zzzLazyDaisy
    That's fantastic Coupon-mad
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.
  • oneyey
    Coupon Mad- thank you so much! This is incredible & I can't believe you've taken time to do this at such a difficult time. Thank you.

    I hadn't meant to seem pushy re the PM comment- this is my first time on a forum & I had no idea how it worked!

    I will be emailing morrisons today & will let you know how I get on.
  • kirkbyinfurnesslad
    Give it a week with Morrisons but if you dont get any where dont forget to get your popla appeal in
  • oneyey
    Hi all, just wanted to say a huge thank you- Morrisons cancelled the ticket with apology. Could not have got that result without your help & it really is appreciated. I didn't get a response to the email, though they obviously got it. Initially I received a letter from PE asking for proof of my visit (despite it saying in the email that I had none). The following day I received another letter ominously ordering me to return to the store in question & ask for 'Ray'. No surname given, just Ray! I was slightly nervous but Ray turned out to be the store manager & he arranged for the ticket to be cancelled.

    Another victory for this forum! Many thanks for all your help- you are amazing!!
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