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  • FIRST POST
    popeyesailor
    SIPP investment in Property
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 13, 6:42 PM
    SIPP investment in Property 12th Apr 13 at 6:42 PM
    Hi,

    I have come across a SIPP investment opportunity that almost sounds to good to be true. This is the reason I am very reluctant to invest any of my underperforming pensions.
    The company is called Dolphin Capital and the investment returns 12% per annum. The investment will be in Germany in listed buldings. The company claims to buy property under the market value and then build appartments (only the facade is listed) and sells the apartments off plan, which has a significant tax benefit for the buyer.
    The compounded return over 5 years if invested £100,000 will pay £176,234, which they claimed to be garanteed. These numbers are much better than any of my pensions have given me over the last 10 years.

    Has any body come across this investment opportunity and if so is this a legitimate investment opportunity. Also if any body can advise how I can check whether this is not a scam.

    Any feedback comments are appreciated.
Page 5
    • CBX1985
    • By CBX1985 16th Mar 18, 8:52 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    CBX1985
    I!!!8217;ve been approached again. Didn!!!8217;t like the sound of it first time around and even less now. Formed in 2008 pays out 2 year and 5 year depending on length of investment. So in 2013 and 2018 would be looking for new investors to pay out to the original people. Just a thought. I!!!8217;m super cautious so nothing like this would ever tempt me to invest any money I had worked extremely hard for or risk my pension that is the only asset I possess.
    Originally posted by CautiousCautiousCautious
    Very wise not going into this.

    I forgot to say, thinking back the way it keeps afloat is a bit like Jordan Belfort's training on Wolf of Wall Street. There was no adviser trail, but every re-investment would get the adviser their seven percent and for also for the firm. So obviously the name of the game was to ensure everyone just rolled their investment on and added on their 12% gain on initial investment. Keeping everyone on the Ferris Wheel, so the only payouts were to advisers and the sales company.

    Every game of musical chairs has a point the music stops.
    Last edited by CBX1985; 16-03-2018 at 9:06 PM. Reason: accuracy
    • CautiousCautiousCautious
    • By CautiousCautiousCautious 17th Mar 18, 6:38 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    CautiousCautiousCautious
    Youíre quite right. What was really shocking was being approached by a guy I used to work with and clearly he was seeking to get in contact with others I worked with by The remind me of so and soís surname. How can anyone that once was a colleague try and con you out of your hard earned money. Apparently my pension pot is worth more out than in, his words, you get a 2.5% increase pa, Iíll make you 10% your 100K will become 160k so from Reading the first post in 2013 when they offered 12% they must have revised their modle as 12pc probably sounded way too good to be true. He also lied about people I know already putting their money into this scheme. Thinking by throwing names around I would be impressed. I told him if Iíd have been interested I would have invested two if three years ago when he first told me about it. I didnít even bother looking it up that time this time I google the name and the first thing back was Dolphin Trust Scandal - I only posted as I saw someone else has recently been approach. Heís my get rich scheme use your £100K to buy your own home and when you are ready to retire completely that Home will be yours and yours alone
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 2nd Apr 18, 8:37 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    I am an investor not connected to Dolphin in any way , nor am I an introducer..

    There seems to be some ignorance over what Dolphin is about on here, to say the least.

    I am 3 years into mu investment and every penny of interest has been paid on the nail.If this is a scam its a very well run one.

    Dont forget that all companies, including banks, need revolving lines of credit in order to trade.... its the way of the world.Each investor has his funds secured by property or its in a german lawyers escrow account....it is never held by the company directly.It is true that a type of JV investment vehicle is used for each project and its inevitable that they are in the red until the property is developed.This is because all the development is sold off plan before work starts.Therefore there is no longer an asset at that point....the funds plus interest are returned to the lawyer.there are no banks involved at the outset as the banks are used to prepackage mortgages for the end buyers.....who benefit from generous tax breaks , such that after 15years their properties are virtually purchased by the tax relief.The mortgages funds are released at various stages of development which is carried out by a german construction company......there is no risk to the investor by then as his funds will be out of the project.

    Ill post again in July when the next interest payment is due, and every 6 months after that till January 2020 when the funds should be returned.
    • Lungboy
    • By Lungboy 2nd Apr 18, 9:55 AM
    • 1,465 Posts
    • 1,452 Thanks
    Lungboy
    It never fails to amaze me how people pop up in these threads. Good luck with your investment with German property cooling down and loads still to come onto the market.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 2nd Apr 18, 11:13 AM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 7,416 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I am 3 years into mu investment and every penny of interest has been paid on the nail.If this is a scam its a very well run one.
    Originally posted by Knight Crofter
    No, if this is a scam (your word, not mine) it's merely an averagely well run one. Madoff's scam lasted over a decade. MMM Global is still going 7 years after launch, albeit after repeated collapses and relaunches. Scams last until new investment dries up. There is no time limit on that.

    Note that I have no reason to believe Dolphin is a scam - I'm only addressing your implication that it can't be a scam because scams have to collapse within three years.

    Dont forget that all companies, including banks, need revolving lines of credit in order to trade.... its the way of the world.
    The vast majority of companies obtain their credit lines from regulated institutions in such a way that no retail investor is exposed to the risk of total and permanent loss. What makes Dolphin different that it needs to source funds directly from retail investors?

    Each investor has his funds secured by property
    So did investors in Secured Energy Bonds and Providence Bonds. Google them.

    .....there is no risk to the investor by then as his funds will be out of the project.
    You're using the word "no risk" in reference to this investment, an ultra-high-risk unregulated bond with a risk of total loss, and you claim others are ignorant about how it works?

    Ill post again in July when the next interest payment is due, and every 6 months after that till January 2020 when the funds should be returned.
    Why? What information will that add? Interest payments being made on time means nothing. Let's assume your particular bond pays 12% - that means so far you have given them say £100,000 and they've given you £36,000 back.

    What is the value of the bond on the open market? How much would you get for your investment if you decided to redeem it today? Only after we add this figure to the money in your pocket can we assess how well the investment has performed to date.

    Why are you so keen for others to invest new funds into this scheme?
    Last edited by Malthusian; 02-04-2018 at 11:20 AM.
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 4th Apr 18, 6:24 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    I have no reason to persuade or dissuade anyone from investing.Just pointing out that it appears genuine.There is risk in all things.The loan notes are not strictly tradeable as such so i guess it can't be sold or encashed early unless they offer that to me.Perhaps, interestingly they have offered conversion of the loan note into shares in a plc listed on the London Stock market so I suppose it could be converted and the shares sold.... but I have no idea what the proceeds might be.The company has close to 200 million shares issued and closing price was 13.5p tonight.
    I take the point that until the end of the 5 year period I wont know if its a " scam" or not.... even then I might just be a lucky one who gets repaid.
    I won't bother updating till December 2019 then you can make your own judgement.
    Last edited by Knight Crofter; 04-04-2018 at 6:33 PM.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 5th Apr 18, 9:15 AM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 7,416 Thanks
    Malthusian
    interestingly they have offered conversion of the loan note into shares in a plc listed on the London Stock market so I suppose it could be converted and the shares sold.... but I have no idea what the proceeds might be.The company has close to 200 million shares issued and closing price was 13.5p tonight.
    Originally posted by Knight Crofter
    That is extremely interesting. Which plc? Presumably not Dolphin Capital Investors as their shares are only 7p and haven't traded anywhere near 13.5p since early 2016.

    If you converted your whole loan into shares and sold them on the open market at tonight's price, what would your gain be?
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 5th Apr 18, 11:00 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    Vordere plc ( apparently means Forward in german.

    At last nights price there would be a 20% loss on sale.The shares have been high enough to generate a 10% profit in the last few weeks.
    Its a bit academic at the moment as the assets of that company are 4 development projects .... but no information has been given as yet to the projected revenues or costs associated with them.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 5th Apr 18, 7:08 PM
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    Malthusian
    So if you converted and sold on the open market today you'd have 80% of your initial capital plus whatever interest payments you've had to date? My first reaction was to tell you to bite their arm off. But that would be irresponsible as it's very possible you wouldn't actually be able to do that.

    Notably, according to the LSE only £13,000 worth of Vordere plc changed hands throughout the whole of yesterday, all "off-book". That suggests it would be quite difficult to dispose of all your shares if you did this.
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 5th Apr 18, 9:20 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    Yes you're right.... I suspect it would be very difficult to offload a large quantity of shares in one go.....unless you had a buyer for them.

    Watch this space.
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 2nd May 18, 12:52 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    Not that anyone gives one, but Im going to Berlin next month at their expense in one of the regular inspection trips.Maybe I'll glean something useful.
    • atush
    • By atush 2nd May 18, 11:03 PM
    • 17,173 Posts
    • 10,736 Thanks
    atush
    No, if this is a scam (your word, not mine) it's merely an averagely well run one. Madoff's scam lasted over a decade. MMM Global is still going 7 years after launch, albeit after repeated collapses and relaunches. Scams last until new investment dries up. There is no time limit on that.

    Note that I have no reason to believe Dolphin is a scam - I'm only addressing your implication that it can't be a scam because scams have to collapse within three years.

    The vast majority of companies obtain their credit lines from regulated institutions in such a way that no retail investor is exposed to the risk of total and permanent loss. What makes Dolphin different that it needs to source funds directly from retail investors?

    So did investors in Secured Energy Bonds and Providence Bonds. Google them.

    You're using the word "no risk" in reference to this investment, an ultra-high-risk unregulated bond with a risk of total loss, and you claim others are ignorant about how it works?

    Why? What information will that add? Interest payments being made on time means nothing. Let's assume your particular bond pays 12% - that means so far you have given them say £100,000 and they've given you £36,000 back.

    What is the value of the bond on the open market? How much would you get for your investment if you decided to redeem it today? Only after we add this figure to the money in your pocket can we assess how well the investment has performed to date.

    Why are you so keen for others to invest new funds into this scheme?
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    i agree. Sounds like a scam.

    WE'll all find out soon enough. But I doubt you (or the above poster) have skin in the game
    Last edited by atush; 02-05-2018 at 11:05 PM.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 2nd May 18, 11:15 PM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 7,416 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Not that anyone gives one, but Im going to Berlin next month at their expense in one of the regular inspection trips.Maybe I'll glean something useful.
    Originally posted by Knight Crofter
    And if the scheme collapses you can add the cost of the trip to the amount of your capital you got out before it did

    I have absolutely no doubt that you will be shown some very nice buildings which Dolphin Trust genuinely own.

    However the existence of buildings is not useful information to anyone who is invested.

    If you want to glean something useful then ask them to supply the last five years' independently audited accounts and their current funding position, and see how they react.

    I strongly doubt that you will glean anything useful by asking, it's the reaction that will be the useful bit.
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 3rd May 18, 9:24 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    I have already found out that the building which my funds were used to buy ( obviously with others) is subject to an agreed sale to a South East Asian institutional investor.

    I will ask about accounts for sure, as well as the level of funding which was in excess of £30m three years ago when I invested.

    I get the distinct feeling that some here will not be satisfied even if I eventually get my capital returned with all the contractual interest.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 4th May 18, 9:56 AM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 7,416 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I get the distinct feeling that some here will not be satisfied even if I eventually get my capital returned with all the contractual interest.
    Originally posted by Knight Crofter
    Nope.

    An investment scheme which generated zero net revenue and paid interest of 12% per annum, simply by paying off existing investors with new investors' money, would take 11 years to collapse if inflows remained constant.

    A scheme paying 12% per annum would therefore need to be at least 11 years old before we can say with confidence that it is generating sufficient external revenue to sustain interest payments of 12% per annum. (I know Dolphin Trust has paid different amounts to different investors but 12% seems to be in the ballpark.) Until it reaches this age, the fact that investors are being paid in full means absolutely nothing. Dolphin Trust is only 5 years old.

    Obviously I'm not saying that any investment scheme paying 12% per annum which is less than 11 years old must be a Ponzi scheme; however, until it is at least 11 years old, the fact that it is making contractual payments doesn't prove it isn't.

    Of course, an investment scheme doesn't have to reach this age to prove it's legitimate - the other thing that would prove its legitimacy would be full management accounts, independently audited by a reputable firm of accountants, proving that interest of 12% per annum is being paid from rental payments or investment profits.
    • Knight Crofter
    • By Knight Crofter 10th May 18, 2:41 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knight Crofter
    Dolphin Trust Gmbh is listed in the German version of Companies House..... I haven't checked any accounts as yet but all documents seem to be up to date.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 11th May 18, 9:48 AM
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    Malthusian
    As far as I can see Dolphin Trust's last filed accounts are for the year ending December 2014. I'm not au fait with German company law and that may well be "up to date", but if so, by English standards German company law is very relaxed indeed.

    There is little point analysing the details of accounts that are so old they may as well be in Gothic script.


    The accounts I was referring to are not the published annual accounts but the management accounts, the spreadsheets showing rental payments and investment profits coming in and bondholder interest and capital going out on a monthly basis. Every company has these. In the days when I used to work in due diligence for corporate lending and venture capital, these are what we would look at to determine that it was a sound investment.
    • Brit-in-spain
    • By Brit-in-spain 9th Jun 18, 11:58 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Brit-in-spain
    Five Years On
    Hello I got to this thread after looking at a link on another thread on this forum after a search about The High Street Group and High Street Boutique Finance. It appears they are linked to Dolphin. Firstly, I want to thank Lozzy1965 for all his questions and endeavours because he had exactly the same ones that I had. I also want to thank all contributors particularly Malthusian, Atush, dunstonh because I have spent hours researching these types and similar investments and it is difficult to get unbiased views. My concerns are much the same as Lozzy1965 in that, amongst many other investments, I have seen one from High Street Boutique Finance that offers 18% over 18 months for a 25k investment in a loan note. Apparently this is secured by a Corporate Guarantee.

    In fact this is what it says in its literature

    "The High Street Group is one of the UKís most successful privately owned businesses and a leading financial and property group and they operate multiple companies in property development and construction, hospitality and leisure, offering expertise and opportunities across multiple sectors. High Street Boutique Finance is one the companies of the group (The HSG) offering unique opportunities to exclusive Investors. They focus on raising funds to enable our internal development and construction departments to build distinctive residential and commercial properties.

    The High Street Group has expanded rapidly with unparalleled growth, now employing more than 100 people in the Head Office in Newcastle upon Tyne and across development sites in the UK. Reported profits for 2016 were £26 million.

    The Group have projects valuing in excess of £260 million and focusing on PRS schemes, traditional development, rooftop extensions and the leisure and hospitality sector. With their sister group, they have prestigious projects in the North of England and Scotland. They currently have close to 200 residential properties under construction, all designed and built to an extremely high standard. They have a further 1,800 units in planning and project management."

    Now I am a very new investor and, to me, this sounds pretty good.

    My questions are, are your opinions still the same as they were when the OP posted 5 years ago? Has anything happened to change your perception or should I stay well away from this?

    Also are your views the same for "hands off rental income schemes" such as pbsa's, serviced holiday accommodation etc as I am also looking at some of these which you buy a unit and then receive a guaranteed rental income of anything from 8% to 12% for anything from 2 years to 10 years. Or would each one have to be considered on its individual merit?
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 9th Jun 18, 1:55 PM
    • 13,320 Posts
    • 11,298 Thanks
    zagfles
    Why do you think any company is willing to pay you 8% or 18% for use of your money? Why? High street banks are offering personal loans with representative APRs around 3%. That's what the average Joe Bloggs will pay for an unsecured loan.

    So why do you think these companies can't get a bank loan for a similar rate, if their business model is sound and their guarantees are so good? Why? Just think about it.

    The only reason a bank would charge them more than the average Joe Bloggs is because banks see them as a higher risk. That's how lending works. It's the same with corporate bonds. The higher the interest rate, the higher the risk.

    This post sums it up quite well (different scheme, same principle).

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67765646
    • Brit-in-spain
    • By Brit-in-spain 9th Jun 18, 3:22 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    Brit-in-spain
    Well the guy selling this to me said that these sort of companies dont lend from banks for 2 reasons. 1. The loans take months to organise with the banks and 2. The banks always want some of the equity of the finished development so this along with the higher interest rates that the bank charges for these types of loans means the company ends up paying pretty much the same. Thats what he said
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