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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Helen Saxon
    • By MSE Helen Saxon 5th Feb 13, 3:11 PM
    • 75Posts
    • 44Thanks
    MSE Helen Saxon
    Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion
    • #1
    • 5th Feb 13, 3:11 PM
    Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion 5th Feb 13 at 3:11 PM
    Hi!

    This is the discussion thread for the

    Green Deal guide.


    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven’t already, join the forum to reply. If you aren’t sure how it all works, read our New to Forum? Intro Guide.


    Thanks folks,
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 26-03-2014 at 7:44 PM.
Page 1
    • NaughtySpot
    • By NaughtySpot 5th Feb 13, 7:54 PM
    • 110 Posts
    • 660 Thanks
    NaughtySpot
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 13, 7:54 PM
    Green Deal assessment this week
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 13, 7:54 PM
    We have our Green Deal assessment this week, booked through British Gas at a cost of £99.

    When I booked this I was quite positive about this, but it has had a real slating in the press in the last 10 days

    We live in a large three-bed semi with single pane windows front and side, and a 20+ year old boiler. We are on a service contract for the boiler so I don't worry about repairs, but I am aware it's probably far from economical to run. My old house was much smaller with a new boiler so I'm not sure how much a new boiler will reduce energy costs.

    Our windows are very draughty and are a condensation problem unless I put the cling film on them. It does help with the draughts, but they are still there when compared to the double glazed units at the back.

    Cavity wall and loft insulation was done 3 years ago.

    We are unlikely to ever have the cash to do all these things in one go, so this could be a golden opportunity to get the house more efficient. This is our forever home unless Bad Things happen, so the loan attached to house part doesn't concern me.

    I am very interested to see what this assessment yields as when we bought the house these home reports weren't being done.

    I will post again when the assessment has been done with my thoughts and hopefully will have more facts to share.
    • george-smith
    • By george-smith 5th Feb 13, 8:04 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    george-smith
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:04 PM
    Green deal still unsure....
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:04 PM
    I have to say I am VERY interested in the Green deal but I am still unsure as to whether or not it should be trusted.
    I have an old 1850 cottage, with thick stone walls. I have double glazing, loft insulation (8") and central heating with a V-E-R-Y old Triang oil boiler, which I am told is only about 40% efficient so I would be looking to upgrade that under the green deal to a newer one of about 95% efficiency.

    The biggest concerns I have are the green deal installers versus the trusted "local" plumber.
    The local plumber will have a future interest in the job, will earn money from future servicing and can be competitive. Not to mention, someone to go and shout at if the work's not 100% up to sacratch.
    The green deal (as it seems to me,) works that the assessor will send down a plumber from "wherever" to do the job (I haven't found a Somerset assessor or installer yet....) and they won't care about future work on it or future responsibility such as servicing or the like.

    Also isn't there an enormous opportunity for mischief amongst the installers, for instance, if a local trusted plumber would charge (say for instance) £2000 for a new boiler, what's to stop the green deal allocated installers from doing a £2000 job but putting £3000 on your bill?

    I heard on the grapevine that the assessors and companies taking part in the G.D. have to shell out a significant amount of money to "join" the scheme and they are going to want to get that back aren't they?

    I would like to take the Green deal opportunity to warm my house (as I can't afford to replace the boiler outright myself) but as Martin has righteously pointed out on many occasions before: "If it looks to good to be true, then it usually is!"

    Any thoughts and advice would be very much appreciated!
  • dave323
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:10 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:10 PM
    I can see exactly how this is going to go, when you try to sell your house the buyer/buyers mortgage company will require it to be paid off, so suddenly along with agents fees, stamp duty, solicitors etc you will have to find the money to pay the loan off (possibly facing early payment fees) or take less for the house.
  • tomhl85
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:56 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 13, 8:56 PM
    One of the biggest issues for me for green deal is being sold on the "golden rule" you'll never pay more than what you're saving on your energy bills but that isn't true. You only slightly cover this in the guide in point 14, basically the savings are calculated on the average property rather than the individual circumstances of the occupiers which may change over the period of the loan.

    I cant see people wanting to rent properties where they may have an extra £25 to £50 per month on their energy bills. I certainly wouldn't buy a house with a loan outstanding that i would have to inherit Id expect it to be paid off or deducted from value of the house.

    Other issue is the amount of money it will cost energy suppliers to set up the system to charge customers for the loan on the energy bills, it will effectively increase the companies operating costs which mean these will need to be covered by future increase in energy prices for all.

    Another government scheme that costs us all money in the end
  • Ecodave
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 13, 9:08 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 13, 9:08 PM
    I have to say I am VERY interested in the Green deal but I am still unsure as to whether or not it should be trusted.
    I have an old 1850 cottage, with thick stone walls. I have double glazing, loft insulation (8") and central heating with a V-E-R-Y old Triang oil boiler, which I am told is only about 40% efficient so I would be looking to upgrade that under the green deal to a newer one of about 95% efficiency.

    The biggest concerns I have are the green deal installers versus the trusted "local" plumber.
    The local plumber will have a future interest in the job, will earn money from future servicing and can be competitive. Not to mention, someone to go and shout at if the work's not 100% up to sacratch.
    The green deal (as it seems to me,) works that the assessor will send down a plumber from "wherever" to do the job (I haven't found a Somerset assessor or installer yet....) and they won't care about future work on it or future responsibility such as servicing or the like.

    Also isn't there an enormous opportunity for mischief amongst the installers, for instance, if a local trusted plumber would charge (say for instance) £2000 for a new boiler, what's to stop the green deal allocated installers from doing a £2000 job but putting £3000 on your bill?

    I heard on the grapevine that the assessors and companies taking part in the G.D. have to shell out a significant amount of money to "join" the scheme and they are going to want to get that back aren't they?

    I would like to take the Green deal opportunity to warm my house (as I can't afford to replace the boiler outright myself) but as Martin has righteously pointed out on many occasions before: "If it looks to good to be true, then it usually is!"

    Any thoughts and advice would be very much appreciated!
    Originally posted by george-smith
    Some of the business models that have sprung up around the Green Deal have identified that the issue around local tradesmen will be a concern for many. You should check with the organisation that you initially deal with about how they farm out their work. Any tradesman who wants to do GD work will still need to be accredited/certified under the scheme. Some of the Green Deal Providers on the other hand will be chomping on every level of the Green Deal pie, and will have their own assessors, installers and organise the finance themselves. There may be advantages to this on bigger jobs as there may be better project management from an in-house player.


    The costs of training and registration are large, but the scheme is expected to last 10+ years, so I don't think that businesses are going to be in a huge rush to get that investment back immediately, but of course, you should get at least 3 quotes to ensure you are being asked to pay the right sum. And whilst your at it, why not get your local builder to quote as well, can't harm.


    As you have a property with a solid wall, you may qualify for ECO funding to help you insulate it, though if its particularly thick, perhaps you will feel that you don't need it?
  • Ecodave
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 13, 9:34 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 13, 9:34 PM
    Congratulations on an excellent review, given the near unanimous pasting the Green Deal has taken in the press, I am relieved that your review is cautiously optimistic about what it can achieve and about what opportunities it presents to the public.

    Can I point out that some Green Deal Advisors will be operating as sole traders, registering through Assessor organisations. The Assessor organisations are currently authorised to use the Green Deal Mark to show that they are compliant with the scheme, but individual Advisors will not be able to do this. Should your readers attempt to verify the credentials of the sole trader Advisor, they may conclude that as the Green Deal Mark is absent, that this individual is not accredited to provide the assessment service, when that is not the case.

    The section that refers to the Golden Rule and how the assessment will be cautious about savings estimates, could include reference to the way in-use factors are used in the calculations. You will probably be aware of DECCs statement on this recently, which are shown here...https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-savings-figures-are-calculated-under-the-green-deals-golden-rule
    Last edited by Ecodave; 05-02-2013 at 9:54 PM. Reason: Further suggestion added.
  • CFC
    • #8
    • 5th Feb 13, 10:56 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Feb 13, 10:56 PM

    The biggest concerns I have are the green deal installers versus the trusted "local" plumber.
    The local plumber will have a future interest in the job, will earn money from future servicing and can be competitive. Not to mention, someone to go and shout at if the work's not 100% up to sacratch.
    The green deal (as it seems to me,) works that the assessor will send down a plumber from "wherever" to do the job (I haven't found a Somerset assessor or installer yet....) and they won't care about future work on it or future responsibility such as servicing or the like.

    Also isn't there an enormous opportunity for mischief amongst the installers, for instance, if a local trusted plumber would charge (say for instance) £2000 for a new boiler, what's to stop the green deal allocated installers from doing a £2000 job but putting £3000 on your bill?
    Originally posted by george-smith
    I'm pretty sure you are right. This is exactly what happened with the Warm Front boilers.
    After all, you only have to think how much British Gas charges for a boiler and fitting compared to an independent local. A lot more!

    I am due for a new boiler this year, but frankly for the sake of £350 I am not going to shell out an extra £1000 to BG or similar for what my own trusted tradesman can do for 2.5k and a 5 year warranty.

    So I shan't even consider Green Deal-ing it.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 5th Feb 13, 11:14 PM
    • 6,492 Posts
    • 4,870 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 13, 11:14 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 13, 11:14 PM
    One pre-assumption is already almost dead in the water, and by a high margin. The transfer of insulation costs from the treasury to the householder was based on the lower VAT rate of 5 per cent, products such as controls for heating and hot water systems, to include the bulk of all insulation be it solid wall or loft or whatever. Add a further 15% to the cost with its associated 7 years cumulative and suddenly the cost changes. Transferring that cost to householders requires the retrofitting 80 existing buildings to a band A level EPC needs to happen every 60 minutes for the next 40 years.

    On a the same subject its nothing more than a carbon trading scheme for individuals, brought in through the back door and directly paid for on interest accruing credit by homeowners, a kind of non-governmental individualised version of a PFI.

    The UK has two critical legal obligations :

    - eradicating fuel poverty by 2016
    - an 80% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050

    Note01 : from HM Treasury and the tree hugging 'dems' part of the CONdems, thanks folks ......................................... again !

    Transferring that cost to householders requires the retrofitting 80 existing buildings to a band A level EPC needs to happen every 60 minutes for the next 40 years. Its nothing more than a carbon trading scheme for individuals, brought in through the back door and directly paid for on interest accruing credit by homeowners, a kind of governmental individualised version of a PFI.

    Note02 : management of the transitional promotional arm of the industry thanks Ecodave for his diligent and herculean one-man efforts to raise awareness .. .. your cheque is in the post Ecodave, less 7% interest, redeemable in 25 years.

    Note3 : no seriously .. .. you are here, and other forums for one purpose only, to 'spread the word' about the new program. Paid, er no idea, but I must assume therefore you are for the moment. Like all seeming evangelist [ Join Date: 29-01-2013 ] first time posters again I assume you've been here before under a different nym. Thus far no attempt to get the unwary into private messaging and no hidden URL's in the contact info so behaviour is within the forum rules.

    Its a forum Dave, here is one opinion :

    - I'd be terrified if you "rolled up to their door" and talked your way into .. ..
    - one of my family's homes, old or young, particularly old
    - you would not leave until you wore them down to the point of exhaustion and a contract was signed
    - I've no doubt you would offer to rev~up their walking frame and drive them through a wet cold night to the bank
    - to ensure a cash deposit, as well as a signature was obtained before leaving the property

    Even I would give up the will to live, pay you your ransom to get my home & life back, then immediately cancel the contract and call my solicitor and trading standards within minutes of gaining my freedom. This whole thread stinks of 'direct pressure selling'. Selling that would happen to anyone you came into contact with, no matter how vulnerable they were, you would I'm sure be able to justify the sale and pocket the 'pieces of silver'.

    Wind .. .. another taxpayer transfer emissions scam, just like the Green Deal'.

    - two brothers David and the numptie sibling Ed, it was Ed that agreed the scheme
    - but it was the CONdems that put it into motion in March 2 years ago
    - energy bills consistently hiked thanks to a series of dodgy wind energy contracts 'Gummered' through the corridors of power
    - taxpayers money, draining away on wind contracts while most households posting here are pushed to the limit
    - £17 billion of your money stacked in the favour of turbine manufacturers
    - Maggie Hodge was right describing the situation as a money printing ‘license for the private sector
    - the energy department has reluctantly admitted they will have to ‘re-examine some of the terms’
    - but the energy department cant see how taxpayers can avoid having to stump up for DECC’s failings

    Ring a loud bell does it ?

    - now there's Ecodave and the Green Schemer
    - the government need another 15% of wind energy, that's about £8 billion of infrastructure investment they don't have

    Hang on .. .. if we stop supplying free etc 'low hanging fruit' and get the Green Deal' off to a good start by conning the public .. .. again. By the time we need that £8 billion a lot of revenue will have been saved.

    Ring a loud bell does it ?

    So they awarded an opportunity and the industry took it with both hands and wrested control completely from government and now that the government know the taxpayers are being robbed for wind they say they "cant see how taxpayers can avoid having to stump up for DECC’s failings" In ten years time the Green Deal will be the same con on the public.

    If anyone reading this thinks the 'Green Deal' is a good idea, you go for it my friends, Ecodave has a right to post, I have a right of reply, and its your right to subscribe to the empty~the~public's~pockets~again initiative.

    - the lies and deceit has started already
    - nice young fella knocks my door - leaflet - my boro council name on it clearly 'sponsoring' the seller
    - no charge at all he says when I ask is it completely free as this leaflet says in big red letters

    I rang the my boro council, after two hours they ring back and assure me they sponsor no one in the town, and asked for information from the leaflet.

    I rang the leaflet number, after 7 goes at waffle he admitted its not free but paid back with interest, the bill transferred to the dwelling if sold.

    - the lies and deceit has started already, how many poor, confused old and vulnerable will have signed before March arrives
    - reading this ? - take care of your parents grandparents, and children, check they have not signed without reading this
    - the lies and deceit and propaganda has started already

    In the light of Ecodave's reference to the excellent defender of the public DECC in # 7 where he says """You will probably be aware of DECCs statement on this recently""" .... Is that the same DECC that the current government's energy department recently said of "cant see how taxpayers can avoid having to stump up for DECC’s failings" How many Department of Energy & Climate Change do we have in the UK, maybe there's more than one and Ecodave meant the 'other one'.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • tiesteelm
    I live in a 1960's prefab house in Liverpool. All the properties that are owned by the council have had the external walls cladded through this scheme, and they look really nice. I will be taking full advantage of this, as I don't see myslef moving in the near future.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 6th Feb 13, 10:59 AM
    • 6,492 Posts
    • 4,870 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Social housing providers were always going to take advantage to improve the energy efficiency of their housing stock. This sector of housing provides natural opportunities to deliver at scale, with the cost-efficiencies that entails. The uptake in the social housing sector will be significantly higher, but starting at a higher [SAP 50 in private and SAP 60 in HA / LA properties] level, it will however decline much quicker than other sectors as opportunities for energy efficiency improvements are used up.

    The transfer of cost in HB recipients terms in either direction is irrelevant in that :

    Non-working HB ~v~ working HB

    - state / taxpayer housing benefit [punitive interest rates] will fund the payback over time
    - legacy debits on the Green Deal are transferable [all in the same boat]
    - the costs of installation are paid for by being 'socialised' across all tenanted housing stock
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Ken68
    • By Ken68 6th Feb 13, 10:59 AM
    • 6,502 Posts
    • 4,141 Thanks
    Ken68
    Am really impressed with the research by Martin and team.
    Have ordered a free survey from Aran.
    James mentions in another thread that EWI has fire risk concerns in Germany.

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9820
    Last edited by Ken68; 06-02-2013 at 11:02 AM.
    • grahamc2003
    • By grahamc2003 6th Feb 13, 11:17 AM
    • 1,747 Posts
    • 1,373 Thanks
    grahamc2003
    I live in a 1960's prefab house in Liverpool. All the properties that are owned by the council have had the external walls cladded through this scheme, and they look really nice. I will be taking full advantage of this, as I don't see myslef moving in the near future.
    Originally posted by tiesteelm
    I thought this was a new scheme not yet fully operational?

    How much is added to your electricity bill each month to payback the council's loan for the work?
    • grahamc2003
    • By grahamc2003 6th Feb 13, 11:42 AM
    • 1,747 Posts
    • 1,373 Thanks
    grahamc2003
    I think the issues addressed in your post summerise most of the issues raised in various threads.

    I think if all the concerns mentioned are addressed and solved somehow (some look quite insurmountable to me), then the GD could work in theory. It could be theoretically sound.

    In addition to all the concerns mentioned, there's an additional one - even if the GD theoretically hangs together, people are worried about how it would actually work in practice. The simple fact that salesmen will be in people's homes with a powerful sales message (they'll say the work is free) will, in practice, lead to assessments and recomendations perhaps not in the clients best interests, but in the saleman's. That's life, I'm not sure how that can be avoided. Some assessors may well enter hoping to help people with their problems, but to hold down an assessors job, imv, they'll have to hit targets. It will almost certainly become a pressure sell of expensive services. I'd be really intersted to see how that can be guarded against.
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 07-02-2013 at 8:39 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • CharlieBilly
    • By CharlieBilly 6th Feb 13, 11:44 AM
    • 1,470 Posts
    • 1,321 Thanks
    CharlieBilly
    Who is supplying external wall insulation for free? only things I have come across that is free is cavity walls and loft insulation

    edit just found one

    http://www.rockwarm.co.uk/news/free-external.php

    I been looking for ages for free solid wall insulation in the past
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 07-02-2013 at 8:39 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • CharlieBilly
    • By CharlieBilly 6th Feb 13, 12:02 PM
    • 1,470 Posts
    • 1,321 Thanks
    CharlieBilly
    I live in a 1920's semi that has half rendered walls, rendering is a little patchy wouldnt like to drill through some parts. I also have wooden bits of roof coming out under the guttering. and at front a porch and large bay. Side a garage and back a small extension. I worry about what happens to drainpipes as they have to be moved, sat dish (freesat), pir security lights etc. I have one disabled person on DLA living with us who feels cold as does my partner. Thanks
    Last edited by CharlieBilly; 06-02-2013 at 12:04 PM.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 6th Feb 13, 12:14 PM
    • 6,492 Posts
    • 4,870 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Actually thats not quite true. If your username promotes your buisness then it could seen as advertising and you could be banned.
    Originally posted by NeverInDebt
    - if its related to 'promoter / provider of energy and carbon management services'
    - they're much higher up, in fact almost at the top of the food chain
    - time always tells the diligent what's needed

    You are of course correct in saying 'if it promotes your business' he could be banned.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 6th Feb 13, 12:31 PM
    • 27,885 Posts
    • 13,746 Thanks
    Cardew
    Indeed it is impossible to estimate the savings from measures with any form of accuracy.

    To meet the requirements of the 'golden rule' the savings must be given a monetary value.

    I suggest that the monetary value of savings for a retired couple who are home all day, and have the rooms at 24C will be considerably higher than a couple out at work all day and content with rooms at 18C when at home.
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 07-02-2013 at 8:40 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • CharlieBilly
    • By CharlieBilly 6th Feb 13, 1:26 PM
    • 1,470 Posts
    • 1,321 Thanks
    CharlieBilly
    Thank you the one I quoted just realised its for electric heating only for 100% grant seems another site I found is also same only 50% cant afford the 4k to put towards it and dont want a loan
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 07-02-2013 at 8:40 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
  • jamesd
    This part of the article is wrong:

    "If your assessor recommends loft and cavity wall insulation, you need do your other recommendations too to get the cashback for them, as they're seen as the basics."

    It is not necessary to do the other recommendations to get the cashback for the loft and cavity wall insulation. It is necessary to do the loft and cavity wall insulation to get the cashback for the other things.

    The Green Deal Cashback FAQ says: "I've read that you can only get cashback if you get loft and cavity insulation installed - is this correct, and if so, why? Government wants to encourage customers who haven’t already done so to install cost-effective measures such as cavity wall and loft insulation, therefore this is a requirement where it is recommended on your Green Deal assessment. Where a property already has the appropriate levels of loft or cavity insulation then they can go ahead and apply for the cashback."

    A 7% interest rate isn't unduly bad, it's not much above the more usual rates for mortgage interest and has that advantage that you can walk away from it by selling.
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