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    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 12th Oct 18, 10:16 PM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Don't know how we can find out the reason why the flight was cancelled
    but as I have said two Ryanair flights flights where due into Liverpool one from Warsaw and ours from Prague, both where expected to return to the same destinations
    Warsaw landed (slight delay) and took off ok
    both stated on JLA online arrivals on approach to airport(I have photo proof) our flight then changed to Diverted to Manchester (again I have photo proof)
    it would appear our flight was the only flight cancelled earlier this afternoon at JLA so surely weather can't only effect 1 flight

    I assume our flight to Prague, would of been making a return flight somewhere, so what happened to that ?

    why couldn't Ryanair just bus all of us to Manchester

    sorry don't know exact figures of how many was on our flight, although it wasn't cheap to book a seat when I checked 24 hours earlier

    apologises for repeating things
    thanks for responding

    Ohh and I don't mind a fight
    Originally posted by bignred05
    What time, date and flight number was it?

    We may be able to find more out.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 12th Oct 18, 10:40 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    What time, date and flight number was it?

    We may be able to find more out.

    Good luck.
    Originally posted by Tyzap
    Date: 12.Oct.2018

    Departure:15:50

    Airport: JLA (Liverpool)

    Flight No: FR8561

    (Liverpool > Prague)

    Thank You
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 12th Oct 18, 11:57 PM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Hi,

    Your aircraft should have been EI-FRV, these are that aircrafts movements for today. For some reason it did not attempt to land at LPL, it flew overhead and then turned to MAN. After 2.5hrs on the ground, it then operated FR8561 (your flight number) MAN to PRG. Very strange, was it empty??

    I cannot see a reason why it did this, but it was very windy here in the NW today. Having said that, no other flights diverted away from LPL around that time.

    1st step is to use the RA website to put in a EU261 claim for compensation and see what excuse they come back with, or, just maybe, they will surprise us and pay up quickly. The point is that until you put in a claim we don't know what they are going to say.

    12 Oct 2018 London (STN) Prague (PRG)FR2013 -20:50 22:47 23:45
    Scheduled KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) London (STN) FR2014 1:37 19:25 21:26 20:25
    Landed 22:03 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Manchester (MAN) Prague (PRG) FR8561 1:47- 17:52 -
    Landed 20:39 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Liverpool (LPL) FR8562 -14:15 14:20 15:25
    Diverted to MAN KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Milan (BGY) Prague (PRG) FR5507 1:06 12:00 12:08 13:25
    Landed 13:15 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Milan (BGY) FR5508 1:05 10:10 10:16 11:35
    Landed 11:21 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Brussels (CRL) Prague (PRG) FR2121 1:12 08:15 08:19 09:45
    Landed 09:31 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Brussels (CRL) FR2122 1:09 06:15 06:20 07:50
    Landed 07:30 KML CSV Play

    11 Oct 2018 Brussels (CRL) Prague (PRG) FR2123 1:08 21:45 22:03 23:15
    Landed 23:11 KML CSV Play
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 13th Oct 18, 12:03 AM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    Hi,

    Your aircraft should have been EI-FRV, these are that aircrafts movements for today. For some reason it did not attempt to land at LPL, it flew overhead and then turned to MAN. After 2.5hrs on the ground, it then operated FR8561 (your flight number) MAN to PRG. Very strange, was it empty??

    I cannot see a reason why it did this, but it was very windy here in the NW today. Having said that, no other flights diverted away from LPL around that time.

    1st step is to use the RA website to put in a EU261 claim for compensation and see what excuse they come back with, or, just maybe, they will surprise us and pay up quickly. The point is that until you put in a claim we don't know what they are going to say.

    12 Oct 2018 London (STN) Prague (PRG)FR2013 -20:50 22:47 23:45
    Scheduled KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) London (STN) FR2014 1:37 19:25 21:26 20:25
    Landed 22:03 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Manchester (MAN) Prague (PRG) FR8561 1:47- 17:52 -
    Landed 20:39 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Liverpool (LPL) FR8562 -14:15 14:20 15:25
    Diverted to MAN KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Milan (BGY) Prague (PRG) FR5507 1:06 12:00 12:08 13:25
    Landed 13:15 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Milan (BGY) FR5508 1:05 10:10 10:16 11:35
    Landed 11:21 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Brussels (CRL) Prague (PRG) FR2121 1:12 08:15 08:19 09:45
    Landed 09:31 KML CSV Play

    12 Oct 2018 Prague (PRG) Brussels (CRL) FR2122 1:09 06:15 06:20 07:50
    Landed 07:30 KML CSV Play

    11 Oct 2018 Brussels (CRL) Prague (PRG) FR2123 1:08 21:45 22:03 23:15
    Landed 23:11 KML CSV Play
    Originally posted by Tyzap
    Tyzap,

    Thank you so much for your detailed reply

    it all seems very odd, as I suggested and you have confirmed

    our flight must of had a return trip from Prague, hence why couldn't Ryanair just bus us all to Manchester in the first place

    it must of flew empty as why would Ryanair send us a cancellation email, we/I asked at the information desk at JLA about a coach transfer to Manchester and was told that's No-No

    again very odd why no other flights got cancelled today from Liverpool, some delays with landing though.

    I'll look to submitting a claim later today now

    another question:

    what can I claim for ?
    Pre Paid Hotel
    Flights refund ?

    Thanks once again for your efforts
    much appreciated
    Last edited by bignred05; 13-10-2018 at 12:30 AM.
    • ABARKIE
    • By ABARKIE 13th Oct 18, 8:00 AM
    • 169 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    ABARKIE
    Tyzap,

    Thank you so much for your detailed reply

    it all seems very odd, as I suggested and you have confirmed

    our flight must of had a return trip from Prague, hence why couldn't Ryanair just bus us all to Manchester in the first place

    it must of flew empty as why would Ryanair send us a cancellation email, we/I asked at the information desk at JLA about a coach transfer to Manchester and was told that's No-No

    again very odd why no other flights got cancelled today from Liverpool, some delays with landing though.

    I'll look to submitting a claim later today now

    another question:

    what can I claim for ?
    Pre Paid Hotel
    Flights refund ?

    Thanks once again for your efforts
    much appreciated
    Originally posted by bignred05

    Please can I ask what time was showing on the cancellation email?


    The reason I ask is when we were called to the gate, and we waiting, they announced (first via shouting, then via tannoy) it was delayed and await further information.


    Then when I sat down and looked on Ryanair website it said cancelled, before it was announced in the seating area.



    Then I received 3 texts (for the 3 bookings on the flight) and only as we walked through back to passport control did the emails come through.


    Did they ever intend to operate the flight?


    Why would the email have a time at 01:00?


    Also, at the time of going through the gate the Easyjet flight to Prague from Manchester on Saturday was 110, but by the time through passport control, it was sold out.


    Like yourself, I struggle to understand, why they could not bus the passengers to Manchester and fly to Prague from there?



    Please keep us updated on the claim.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 13th Oct 18, 8:41 AM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Tyzap,
    another question:

    what can I claim for ?
    Pre Paid Hotel
    Flights refund ?

    Thanks once again for your efforts
    much appreciated
    Originally posted by bignred05
    I'm assuming you've abandoned you holiday as a result.

    You should claim for everything it has cost you, including EC261 compensation of 250 euros each and a refund of unused flights, just to test them. They will refuse to pay any consequential costs (under EU261 regs) such as pre booked hotels, loss of work/holidays etc. but I would still request those costs.

    Read Vaubans great guide, details just below here.

    If/when you reach a deadlock with Ryanair you should refer to AviationADR, details here....

    https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/how-to-complain-about/airline-complaints/

    Read up on how they work as you will need them in the future, Ryanair will make the whole process as hard and difficult as possible. Anyone taking on Ryanair need determination and patience as it will be a long and difficult process. Just read back through this thread to see what I mean.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Tyzap; 13-10-2018 at 10:06 AM. Reason: add compo amount etc
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 13th Oct 18, 1:55 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
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    bignred05
    Please can I ask what time was showing on the cancellation email?


    The reason I ask is when we were called to the gate, and we waiting, they announced (first via shouting, then via tannoy) it was delayed and await further information.


    Then when I sat down and looked on Ryanair website it said cancelled, before it was announced in the seating area.



    Then I received 3 texts (for the 3 bookings on the flight) and only as we walked through back to passport control did the emails come through.


    Did they ever intend to operate the flight?


    Why would the email have a time at 01:00?


    Also, at the time of going through the gate the Easyjet flight to Prague from Manchester on Saturday was 110, but by the time through passport control, it was sold out.


    Like yourself, I struggle to understand, why they could not bus the passengers to Manchester and fly to Prague from there?



    Please keep us updated on the claim.
    Originally posted by ABARKIE
    we must of been in the same group as you, I'd say there was about 25-30 people who actually had been through boarding/passport check, we must of been in the first 10 people to go through to wait at the gate.

    I recall the lady coming into our area and shouting/requesting us to return the the departure lounge as our flight was actually circling the airport and has been diverted to Manchester.

    at the same time there must of been about the same number 25-30+ queuing for their Boarding/passport check.

    we waited just outside the boarding gate 43 area with a number of others off the flight, whilst here I checked JLA arrivals website for details etc, both our flight & the Warsaw one stated on approach to airport, Warsaw then changed to landed at 15:30 (late by?) our flight then changed to Diverted to Manchester (this was after being told about this by the airport handling staff).

    I've got photo's of JLA Flight info at 15:53 detailing the flight as cancelled

    as for communication from Ryanair, I heard a few people whilst still at the gate area sat they had a text about flight refunds (I never got any text message at all) once outside and at the Ryanair desk emails must of started to feed through

    I've one one on my laptop rather strangely it states sent 11/01/2010 at 23:00 (I can only assume this is an automated email) however under my received column in m/soft office it states received as 12/10/2018 at 15:56.
    on my iPhone email Gmail app it states received at 15:56 (12/10/2018)
    yet on my iPhone email accounts it states received at 17:17

    I was the first person at the Ryanair desk, I asked the usual questions and more important y why couldn't we be bussed to Manchester as our flight must have a return trip from Prague.

    You mention the Easyjet flight, there was a young lady asking about other flights to Prague (she sounded like a local Chech) the lady mentioned there was 3 seats left on the Easyjet fight from Manchester (Tomorrow) for 81 but she had to book this herself and claim it back later.

    she/they also stated we would be a full refund for our flights and would be able to claim EU compensation, although it was pointed out how Ryanair would wriggle out of this blaming the weather.

    the fact we have proof the flight sat on the ground for 2.5 hours at Manchester before flying to Prague, should help us in our quest for EU compensation.

    I'll be submitting my claim this afternoon

    I'll update what happens next
    • JPears
    • By JPears 13th Oct 18, 3:20 PM
    • 4,272 Posts
    • 1,168 Thanks
    JPears
    This maybe a case where possibly your flight was booked lightly, a scheduled flight from Manchester to Prague was full, their plane had a technical and your aircraft was substituted in, sacrificing your flight?
    Or maybe they had to swap a crew out? It's a weird one.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 13th Oct 18, 3:33 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    This maybe a case where possibly your flight was booked lightly, a scheduled flight from Manchester to Prague was full, their plane had a technical and your aircraft was substituted in, sacrificing your flight?
    Or maybe they had to swap a crew out? It's a weird one.
    Originally posted by JPears
    I checked the prices on the flight the day before, both the outward and return where well over 100 (possibly even over 150 each) so that would suggest the flight was fairly full.

    also and more importantly Ryanair don't fly from Manchester to Prague.

    I can only assume it left empty to fore fill other flights it was scheduled in for, which we know happened

    there's defiantly something odd about this, with the fact we got called to board approx 50 minutes before departure (with no indication of a cancelled flight) the flight record shows/proves it circled Liverpool, the flight before from Warsaw landed fine all be it a bit late.

    the Prague flight then for some unknown/unexplained reason diverted to Manchester, sat there for 2.5 hours then flew empty to Prague.

    I asked both at the first point of the cancellation and outside why could we not just be bussed to Manchester, at one point the answer was the Pilot has cancelled the flight ?

    Claim submitted, watch this space
    • fifeken
    • By fifeken 14th Oct 18, 6:52 PM
    • 2,247 Posts
    • 1,153 Thanks
    fifeken
    I asked both at the first point of the cancellation and outside why could we not just be bussed to Manchester . . .
    Originally posted by bignred05
    I suspect the time to organise coaches and get you there would have resulted in an even greater delay in getting back to Prague than they actually experienced. The plane had another rotation from Prague to Stansted and back that day, and both legs arrived less than 3 hours late. A further delay may have opened them up to compensation claims for these two flights.
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 14th Oct 18, 7:30 PM
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    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    I suspect the time to organise coaches and get you there would have resulted in an even greater delay in getting back to Prague than they actually experienced. The plane had another rotation from Prague to Stansted and back that day, and both legs arrived less than 3 hours late. A further delay may have opened them up to compensation claims for these two flights.
    Originally posted by fifeken
    sounds very plausible that

    will be interesting to see what Ryanair's response is to my claim and no doubt others.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 14th Oct 18, 9:04 PM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Hi bignred05,

    You should have been offered a triple choice along these lines...

    b. Right to reimbursement, re-routing or rebooking in the event of denied boarding or cancellation
    Article 8(1) of the Regulation imposes on air carriers the obligation to offer passengers a triple choice, between (i) reimbursement of the ticket price36 and, in the case of connections, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity, (ii) re-routing to their final destination either at the earliest opportunity or, (iii) re-routing at a later date at the passenger’s convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to availability of seats. As a general principle, when the passenger is informed about the cancellation of the flight and is correctly informed on the available choices, the choice offered to passengers under Article 8(1) is to be made once. In such cases, as soon as the passenger has chosen one of the three options under Article 8(1)(a),(b) or (c), the air carrier no longer has any obligation linked to the other two options. Nonetheless, the obligation to compensation may still apply according to Article 5(1)(c) in connection with Article 7.

    In my opinion your flight was not diverted to Manchester, it was redirected by their ops dept. A conscious decision to abandon all their passengers at Liverpool for an unknown reason. Perhaps the 2.5 hours at Manchester had something to do with it, a minor tec problem perhaps.

    When the aircraft approached LPL it maintained 8,000ft and turned around over the sea n/w of Liverpool city centre. It made no attempt to land at LPL, which suggests the windy conditions were not a factor in the decision to go to MAN.

    For your perusal, here are the interpretive guidelines which attempt to clarify the EC261 regulations in more general terms...

    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/themes/passengers/news/doc/2016-06-10-better-enforcement-pax-rights/c%282016%293502_en.pdf

    Good luck
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 14th Oct 18, 9:05 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    Out of interest if we don't check in for the return flight** will this effect any compensation/refund

    ** I've just tried to check in but it won't let me, is this right ?
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 14th Oct 18, 9:21 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    Hi bignred05,

    You should have been offered a triple choice along these lines...

    b. Right to reimbursement, re-routing or rebooking in the event of denied boarding or cancellation
    Article 8(1) of the Regulation imposes on air carriers the obligation to offer passengers a triple choice, between (i) reimbursement of the ticket price36 and, in the case of connections, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity, (ii) re-routing to their final destination either at the earliest opportunity or, (iii) re-routing at a later date at the passenger’s convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to availability of seats. As a general principle, when the passenger is informed about the cancellation of the flight and is correctly informed on the available choices, the choice offered to passengers under Article 8(1) is to be made once. In such cases, as soon as the passenger has chosen one of the three options under Article 8(1)(a),(b) or (c), the air carrier no longer has any obligation linked to the other two options. Nonetheless, the obligation to compensation may still apply according to Article 5(1)(c) in connection with Article 7.

    In my opinion your flight was not diverted to Manchester, it was redirected by their ops dept. A conscious decision to abandon all their passengers at Liverpool for an unknown reason. Perhaps the 2.5 hours at Manchester had something to do with it, a minor tec problem perhaps.

    When the aircraft approached LPL it maintained 8,000ft and turned around over the sea n/w of Liverpool city centre. It made no attempt to land at LPL, which suggests the windy conditions were not a factor in the decision to go to MAN.

    For your perusal, here are the interpretive guidelines which attempt to clarify the EC261 regulations in more general terms...

    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/themes/passengers/news/doc/2016-06-10-better-enforcement-pax-rights/c%282016%293502_en.pdf

    Good luck
    Originally posted by Tyzap
    Thanks for the update

    my first impression when I herd about the diversion to Manchester was, its OK they will just bus us all to Manchester

    as I have mentioned I asked this both inside still airside at the gate and outside at the Ryanair/Serviceair desk, but even inside the airport the Ryanair staff stated the pilot had cancelled the flight so that won't happen.

    as for being offered Rerouting etc, NOT A CHANCE

    at first there was one very young lady on here own plus another older lady (both where Serviceair staff and not Ryanair) a short while later an older lady appeared weather her shift was a bout to start or she was just sent to help out is unclear.

    However this lady pointed out to another lone passenger that there was 3 seats left on a Easyjet flight the following day (Saturday) at 81, she was quite clear that this lady would have to book this herself and claim it back.
    she was also clear in the fact there was no other flights to Prague until later in the week (later when I got home Skyscanner had several flights from Manchester the following day)

    I've just been googling Ryanair and EU261 delay compensation, Ryanair mention about rerouting but it appears to mention only on similar "budget" airlines, BUT NO SUCH OFFER WAS MADE TO ME OR ANYONE ELSE WHILST i WAS AT THE DESK, QUITE THE OPPOSITE REALLY

    Thank you for your update


    *** out of interest could we have chosen another weekend flight without having to pay to pay the difference

    also what would of happened to all the passengers who got off the flight at Manchester, are they not supposed to get them to Liverpool
    • JPears
    • By JPears 14th Oct 18, 9:28 PM
    • 4,272 Posts
    • 1,168 Thanks
    JPears
    Ryanair may have already unilaterally processed a refund for your return flightAs Tyzap has suggested, your plane may have had technical, or a crew change was required but the crew was in the wrong airport/position, possibly due to weather.
    Whilst the aircraft had a heavy schedule, it won't be the same crew all day.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 14th Oct 18, 10:36 PM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Thanks for the update

    *** out of interest could we have chosen another weekend flight without having to pay to pay the difference

    I believe they claim so.

    also what would of happened to all the passengers who got off the flight at Manchester, are they not supposed to get them to Liverpool
    Originally posted by bignred05
    They would have been bussed back to Liverpool, possibly within the 3 hr delay time so probably no compensation for them.



    To get that aircrafts schedule back on track, you can see how they have mitigated their losses. There was no way of preventing claims from you and your fellow passengers so you were abandoned. Now they will work hard to cut down the number of successful claimants from your flight. It's a war of attrition, and Ryanair are the masters of it.

    This type of systematic abuse of the regulations by RA was not foreseen by the regulators 15 years ago and thats why it's so difficult for passengers in your position.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 14th Oct 18, 10:49 PM
    • 4,272 Posts
    • 1,168 Thanks
    JPears
    And so a letter of complaint to the CAA must be made highlighting this massive and systematic abuse of the paying passenger.
    To the airlines it is purely a numbers game. They pay only minimal lip service to customer service.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • bignred05
    • By bignred05 16th Oct 18, 10:56 AM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 303 Thanks
    bignred05
    Just had a reply off Ryanair from my claim submitted on Saturday

    They have knocked back the whole claim (Eu261 & Hotel) stating as due to adverse weather etc it couldn’t land no mention as to why they never buses us to Manchester either

    We refer to your online claim dated 14th October 2018.

    We sincerely regret the cancellation of your flight FR8561 from Liverpool to Prague on the 12/10/2018, which was caused due to adverse weather conditions, wind, outside of our control.

    As this cancellation was unexpected and therefore outside Ryanair’s control, we regret to advise that no monetary compensation is due under EU Regulation 261/2004.

    We are not liable for any services that you prepaid for your flight.

    We trust that the above has clarified matters in this regard.





    Obviously I’m not happy with this and would appreciate advice on what to do next

    Thanks
    Last edited by bignred05; 16-10-2018 at 11:02 AM.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 16th Oct 18, 11:41 AM
    • 4,272 Posts
    • 1,168 Thanks
    JPears
    If that is their final response then go to ADR.
    You could write again sayiing that weather was not an issue (if you are sure it wasn't given the other flight movements) but frankly I think you are wasting your time. However you could mark it as an NBA/LBA then you don't need to go back to them, should the ADR fail you and you have to go ESCP route.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 16th Oct 18, 11:56 AM
    • 1,694 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Hi Bignred05,

    IMO you should try ADR (AviationADR) first, as the ESCP route is not an easy or quick route but is one which you could still return to in the future.

    I don't agree with JP that you would be wasting your time!

    https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/how-to-complain-about/airline-complaints/

    It won't cost you anything so worth a try.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
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