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    • jpsartre
    • By jpsartre 19th Feb 18, 10:01 PM
    • 3,494 Posts
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    jpsartre
    They will contact you. Deadlines are regularly missed with ADR's in my experience.
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 28th Feb 18, 12:21 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    My claim is very similar to this. My claim has been ongoing for over 3 years. During this time I have been in touch with another passenger on the same flight as me who took Thomas Cook to court and won his case and TC paid out. (even though he had to get bailiffs to get his money following the court ruling)

    I have his copy of his court ruling and submitted that to CEDR and they still favored with TC. So I am now taking TC to court myself.

    Surely if TC have paid out for another passenger on the exact same flight as me then that means they are accepting liability by the fact they have paid out. I will not be able to get my head around it if when I go to court I lose, especially as I have submitted the other court ruling.

    I was hoping someone could either reassure me or explain if there is a chance that I could lose my claim even though I can prove that TC have already accepted liability.




    Interesting development in my claim.

    Have been informed by another passenger on the flight (and seen the evidence) that after referring to CEDR Thomas Cook were forced to pay out. Therefore assumed they would have to pay out for us too, having already set the precedent.

    Having referred to CEDR myself Thomas Cook are still contesting it. And here comes the strange bit....they have provided examples of 2 cases for the same flight where CEDR have ruled in their favour.

    Has anyone ever come across this? I.e. Where CEDR have provided contradictory rulings on the same flight.
    Originally posted by Paulcox741
    • JPears
    • By JPears 28th Feb 18, 3:09 PM
    • 4,188 Posts
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    JPears
    Jeez Phil, you've lingered on with this one! Your 1st post was 3 years ago! Get on with it!
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 28th Feb 18, 4:28 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    I was hoping for more constructive replies.

    18 months mucking around with useless solicitors (Bott&Co), who don't offer anything more than what you can do yourself.

    another year locating another passenger then waiting for their court case so I could use that as evidence in my case.

    Another 6 months mucking around with CEDR.



    Interesting development in my claim.

    Have been informed by another passenger on the flight (and seen the evidence) that after referring to CEDR Thomas Cook were forced to pay out. Therefore assumed they would have to pay out for us too, having already set the precedent.

    Having referred to CEDR myself Thomas Cook are still contesting it. And here comes the strange bit....they have provided examples of 2 cases for the same flight where CEDR have ruled in their favour.

    Has anyone ever come across this? I.e. Where CEDR have provided contradictory rulings on the same flight.
    Originally posted by Paulcox741
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 28th Feb 18, 4:59 PM
    • 1,640 Posts
    • 715 Thanks
    Tyzap
    My claim is very similar to this. My claim has been ongoing for over 3 years. During this time I have been in touch with another passenger on the same flight as me who took Thomas Cook to court and won his case and TC paid out. (even though he had to get bailiffs to get his money following the court ruling)

    I have his copy of his court ruling and submitted that to CEDR and they still favored with TC. So I am now taking TC to court myself.

    Surely if TC have paid out for another passenger on the exact same flight as me then that means they are accepting liability by the fact they have paid out. I will not be able to get my head around it if when I go to court I lose, especially as I have submitted the other court ruling.

    I was hoping someone could either reassure me or explain if there is a chance that I could lose my claim even though I can prove that TC have already accepted liability.
    Originally posted by Phil1976
    Hi Phil,

    During the hearing don't set out your stall based on the fact that TC have had to pay out in another case. Judges don't like you trying to force their hand. Use the same argument as the passenger that won and mention that at least one other passenger on the same flight has been paid out. You can ask TC how many claims for the same flight have been paid out already.

    No court or even CEDR has to follow suite at this stage, so please do not go into court expecting that they do. I know that this seem illogical but it is how the legal system works.

    Regardless of what CEDR decided, MCOL will be more thorough and you will have a good opportunity to fully explain your case. Prior to a court hearing you should go through the ADR system which is offered by the court. If you put up a good argument, they may fold at that point, if not you can take it to a court hearing and have your say.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Tyzap; 28-02-2018 at 5:02 PM. Reason: clarify a point
    Please read Vaubans superb guide. To find it Google and then download 'vaubans guide'.
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 28th Feb 18, 5:08 PM
    • 922 Posts
    • 404 Thanks
    legal magpie
    It would be worthwhile getting a copy of the judgment in the other passenger's case but decisions of DJ's are not binding on other DJ's especially in smalll claims cases.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 28th Feb 18, 5:09 PM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 1,140 Thanks
    JPears
    My response was tongue in cheek
    You need to get your clain in legal via small claims.
    No one can assure you of a win but if the reason for your claim is good and valid and you have a copy of a favourable judgement for the same flight, then your chances are good in court, if it comes to that.
    Forget CEDR, it appears the process is flawed in many ways.
    Could you re- post the details of the delay/cancellation etc? (brief)
    And as you have "mucked around" for 3 years, don't forget to include interest in your small claims court submission.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 1st Mar 18, 10:02 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    No problem JPears I appreciate your help.

    My flight was from Gatwick to Hurghada (Egypt) on 24/6/14, flight number was TCX1518. Original flight time was 13:50pm and we were delayed for approx 25 hours. If it helps people remember we were put up in a hotel in Folkestone for the night (70 miles away).

    legalmagpie I have the court ruling from the other passenger and additional evidence that they used.

    Tyzap - thank you very much for your reply, that is exactly the type of advice I was looking for.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 1st Mar 18, 10:37 AM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 1,140 Thanks
    JPears
    For court procedures in particular:
    Focus your claim on the actual facts - your delay, the reason for the delay. What airline did or didn't do to minimise your delay or re-route you (with a different airline if necessary) and how these all relate to the regulation and your claim for compensation. If the delay was for a technical reason, don't get bogged down in the technicalities of the issue. Most technical failures are not an EC, end of. You don't have to prove it. Conversely the airline will have to prove the delay was an EC, if they can.
    If you are going to use the previous judgement as evidence, which I would, it must be submitted with all your papers (not the initial application to court), you cannot keep your cards to your chest, so to speak as the judge is unlikely to allow it as evidence at a late stage.
    I would be tempted not to include any CEDR stuff in your initial evidence. I am sure the airline will in their submissions. If they do, you can make further submissions to address that. However, perhaps see if you can find any CEDR cases that have gone in favour of your flight ( or any flights where CEDR have found both in favour/against people on the same flight) - this will demonstrate the unpredictability of the CEDR process.
    If the CEDR is considered a public body, you could submit an FOI to see how many people have claimed on your flight.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 1st Mar 18, 11:31 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    Jpears what is an FOI and how do I obtain that ?

    Basically TC are claiming there was a power surge which blew 7 circuit boards on the plane, claiming extra ordinary circumstances and by the time they were replaced the crew were over the hours allowing them to fly.

    I have an email from Gatwick saying that 98% of their flights that day experienced no problems with power.

    The judge that found TC guilty said

    " that he was quite satisfied that the use of electricity is clearly inherent to the operation of any aircraft. I agree with this and, in my judgement this must also apply to electricity supplied by the airport authorities whilst stationary at an airport, which must be, on any analysis, be within the category of normal airport services and will not, therefore, be an extraordinary circumstance. The power spike may have been an unusual occurrence, it may have been unforeseeable, but the supply of electricity is inherent in the normal exercise of the Defendants's activity and is not, therefore an exceptional circumstance".
    • JPears
    • By JPears 1st Mar 18, 12:40 PM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 1,140 Thanks
    JPears
    Freedom of information act - you can ask for data on a specific question (as long as it doesn't compromise personal data). You can only apply if it is a public body, not a private company. Unless an element of your query involves public work carried out by a private company.
    All circuit boards on airplanes are protected from such events by resettable trip fuses/circuit breakers so it is highly unlikely any actually blew. The circuit breakers may have had to be replaced. It is more likely that a thorough circuit check and reboot was required rather than substantial repairs.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 1st Mar 18, 12:56 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    Thanks but wouldn't Thomas Cook come under a private company ?

    I will definitely be asking the question in court or before if possible, would be good to have the facts before the court date though, as I would love to ask the question already knowing the answer, just to test their honesty.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 2nd Mar 18, 10:32 AM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 1,140 Thanks
    JPears
    No, I meant CEDR to do FOI, see if the same flight has received adjudication, as TC claim. Those in favour and those against.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Phil1976
    • By Phil1976 2nd Mar 18, 1:50 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Phil1976
    Ah I see, I'll give it a go.

    Thanks
    • Tel0070_1
    • By Tel0070_1 7th Mar 18, 2:37 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Tel0070_1
    Why no surprises? CEDR seem to have been fair in most cases - so when was your flight, how much delayed, and why?
    Originally posted by Vauban

    Maybe I was being a little too cynical, given that Thomas Cook recommended I take this route with CEDR and yet CEDR have ruled in their favour...!!
    Flight MT2929 5th August '17, over 5 hours delay, yet TC stating that the initial delay was due to a lightning strike, however they have neglected to comment on the fact that before the lightning strike there was a delay of over 5 hours due to over-running maintenance....
    • Tel0070_1
    • By Tel0070_1 7th Mar 18, 2:41 PM
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    Tel0070_1
    Hi tel,

    Re: MT2929 from Orlando.

    CEDR have just appointed an adjudicator so haven't heard yet.

    You would be the third person on that flight I know of now who have had their claim rejected by CEDR. However, I know of at least one person who has been successful via CEDR so guess it depends on the adjudicator you get and how detailed they look at the facts and then interpret them.

    The fact that one adjudicator has ruled against Thomas Cook would suggest we do have a case. Not sure there is anywhere you can go after CEDR using this other successful case as a precedent?!?
    Originally posted by Paulcox741

    Do you have the details of the 'winning' claim? Was there some specific fact I wonder that made the difference? I'm in the process of going back to the adjudicator now with my appeal - so time-consuming and tedious, especially if some claimants have been successful and others haven't - I'm not giving up though!!
    • Tel0070_1
    • By Tel0070_1 7th Mar 18, 2:42 PM
    • 4 Posts
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    Tel0070_1
    Thanks JPears.

    I've got a copy of the successful CEDR ruling, so will go down that route if the decision goes against me.

    I also included it in my submission but not sure if they'll take that into consideration.
    Originally posted by Paulcox741

    Hi Paul,


    are you able to let me have a copy of the successful ruling for MT2929, by any chance?


    cheers
    • Paulcox741
    • By Paulcox741 8th Mar 18, 8:10 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Paulcox741
    Hi Tel,

    Message me your email address and I'll send it over. Think it was accepted because that particular adjudicator interpreted the delay differently.

    Just had confirmation they've rejected my claim so looks like only option now is to go to the small claims court.

    Out of interest what time did you have recorded as the doors opening?
    • tripletmom
    • By tripletmom 9th Mar 18, 4:11 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    tripletmom
    Hi All,

    Well I went back to Thomas Cook and queried their time of arrival as stated that by their reckoning it took 120seconds to slow down, clear the runway, taxi to arrival gate, stop, hook up the disembarking bridge and open the plane doors.


    Thanks for getting in touch with us again about your flight delay and for giving us some more details.

    I'm sorry your flight was delayed. We carried out a full investigation when you first wrote to us. Following a review of our aviation report on your delay, we're confident in our decision not to pay compensation.

    We wanted to let you know that as we're a UK based airline, you have access to an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) scheme. This has been approved by the Civil aviation Authority (the CAA) and is provided by the Centre for Effective Dispute Resolution (CEDR). If you like, you can refer your complaint to (CEDR) for an independent determination to be made.

    CEDR is an independent dispute resolution provider certified by the CAA to adjudicate disputes between airline and their passengers that have not been resolved through the airline's own complaints procedure.

    You can find out how to refer your complaint to CEDR by vising their website: cedr.com/aviation. All decisions made by CEDR are independent and binding on the airline, this means that the airline must obey the decision that's made by the adjudicator.

    I'm so sorry we weren't able to resolve this for you. I hope we'll be able to welcome you back on a flight with us in the future.


    They have very quickly sent me a response as below: - It seems that they are quite adamant that they are not due compensation. Or is this just a bluff to deter me contacting CEDR? Do you think it is worth pursuing? From memory I think it costs money to esculate

    Thanks Again for advice
    Originally posted by tripletmom
    Hi All,

    Just an update.. went to CEDR, they accepted my case and gave Thomas Cook 15days to respond.. today was the deadline... Thomas Cook came back and offered me full compensation for all 5 of us!! Result. This was despite their response above and that I couldn't prove that we were delayed over 3hrs, I just stated that wheels had touched down in Gatwick at 2hrs 56 mins late and that it seemed unfeasible that we would have been able to slow down, taxi, park up, attach the passenger bridge and open the doors in 4 minutes.

    Thanks for all your advice guys!

    Result!
    • jpsartre
    • By jpsartre 9th Mar 18, 4:16 PM
    • 3,494 Posts
    • 2,230 Thanks
    jpsartre
    I just stated that wheels had touched down in Gatwick at 2hrs 56 mins late and that it seemed unfeasible that we would have been able to slow down, taxi, park up, attach the passenger bridge and open the doors in 4 minutes.
    Originally posted by tripletmom
    Good to see that common sense prevailed.
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