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    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
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    zeupater
    Solar ... In the news
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
    Solar ... In the news 7th Jan 13 at 5:36 PM
    Hi All

    Thought it was about time we had a thread specifically to discuss relevant press articles relating to solar pv & thermal ..... so here goes ...

    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 07-01-2013 at 5:48 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
Page 112
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Mar 18, 7:31 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Same ole same ole with Australia rolling out masses of small scale PV, but what struck me was the price of a domestic system:-

    Australia's solar future bright as households install record 3.5m panels

    A fully installed 5KW system costs an average of $5,930 in Australia, according to the energy broker Solarchoice.net.au. Its records show that the price has roughly halved in many capital cities since 2012.
    And just to be clear, those are Aussie dollars.

    So Aus$6k is approx £3,400.

    Even taking into account the MIP which Europe has, and the fact that many Aus properties may well be single storey, that's still a staggering price.

    Goes to show what can be achieved if the industry is supported and supply chains (importers, wholesalers and retailers) aren't damaged by boom and bust political decisions.

    Have to repeat that price £3.4k for 5kWp.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Mar 18, 10:44 AM
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    NigeWick
    Have to repeat that price £3.4k for 5kWp.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    My 4kW system with immersion tank diverter was £6,300 three years ago.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • michaels
    • By michaels 6th Mar 18, 4:28 PM
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    michaels
    My 4kW system with immersion tank diverter was £6,300 three years ago.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    And mine was 4.8 at the same point but even though we were 2 story there was a flat roof to work off so no scaffolding needed. 4 more panels to make it 5kwh would not have added much cost either.
    Cool heads and compromise
    • pinnks
    • By pinnks 6th Mar 18, 5:22 PM
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    pinnks
    My 5kWp systems (well 5.25kWp) with immerSUN was just over £10k in 2013 and extended 2014. How times and prices change.

    But then, early adopters were paying significantly more just 6 or 7 years ago
    Wiltshire - 5.25kWp
    3.5kWp: 14 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 4000TL, WSW 40 degrees, June 2013
    1.75kWp: 7 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 1600TL, SSE 45 degrees, March 2014
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 12th Mar 18, 1:42 PM
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    GreatApe
    I think this is significant, but stick with me as I go down a mathematical rabbit hole:

    Solar rises to nearly 2% of U.S. generation in 2017

    Growth of approx 40% pa for PV has been typical now for about a decade. That actually translates to an approx doubling every 2 years.

    Wind and PV have started from a tiny (tiny weeny) base, but their growth has now reached critical levels, such as 2% .... really, 2% is critical ....... I said it was a rabbit hole.

    Now, whilst earlier doubling's move you from negligible, to almost negligible, 1% or 2% are actually significant. If you start at 2% and do 5 doubling's you get to, wait for it, 64%, which is by no means trivial nor negligible.

    Now, I don't expect that to happen, or even be needed, but that hypothetical level could be reached in just 10yrs, or 15yrs if doubling's take 3yrs.

    So with low costs, and falling costs, it looks like the potential of PV supplying a significant percentage of US leccy has now arrived, and hopefully that potential, let's lowball it at 10-20% in the next decade or so, now seems reasonable.

    Isn't maths (sorry math it is the US after all) fun!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    Hows continually doubling solar working out for the Germans?
    Why would it be different for the USA or wherever else?
    Solar can grow exponentially then it will fall off a cliff just as it did with the Germans.

    As you know solar is only about 7% of Germany which is good but not a big part of the solution. Its feast and famine output makes high integration difficult and then impossible beyond a certain point and that point is a low number.

    Much more effective would be high CF offshore wind power for the EU.
    Like the new large GE turbine which apparently can get 63% CF.
    With such offshore wind turbines you could have offshore wind at 70% of electricity while PV seems to be finding it hard to go much above 7% in Germany.

    Both good technologies but the future for bulk clean generation for the EU is high CF wind not solar. High CF offshore wind also clears a path to closing the nukes while PV and low CF onshore wind wasn't really something that could replicate what nuclear has achuebd in France.

    Also offshore wind is really near the beginning of its story. How many have been installed maybe <1,000 turbines last year? While PV is near the end of its story over 20 billion panels were manufactured last year.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Mar 18, 2:48 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hows continually doubling solar working out for the Germans?
    Why would it be different for the USA or wherever else?
    Solar can grow exponentially then it will fall off a cliff just as it did with the Germans.

    As you know solar is only about 7% of Germany which is good but not a big part of the solution. Its feast and famine output makes high integration difficult and then impossible beyond a certain point and that point is a low number.

    Much more effective would be high CF offshore wind power for the EU.
    Like the new large GE turbine which apparently can get 63% CF.
    With such offshore wind turbines you could have offshore wind at 70% of electricity while PV seems to be finding it hard to go much above 7% in Germany.

    Both good technologies but the future for bulk clean generation for the EU is high CF wind not solar. High CF offshore wind also clears a path to closing the nukes while PV and low CF onshore wind wasn't really something that could replicate what nuclear has achuebd in France.

    Also offshore wind is really near the beginning of its story. How many have been installed maybe <1,000 turbines last year? While PV is near the end of its story over 20 billion panels were manufactured last year.
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    I think you will find my huge support for wind evidenced on the Green energy thread. Plus of course I think I've been through most of this with you in the past under your other name.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 8:06 AM
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    Martyn1981
    News from India.
    The massive roll out of solar in India continues, with a year on year rapid scaling up towards their 100GWp by 2022 target, and now a 3GWp tender with a $45/MWh cap.

    India’s Largest Solar Tender Of 3 Gigawatts Launched


    And news of a solar powered city, perhaps more accurately described as 'net 100% solar powered':-

    This Indian City Is 100% Solar-Powered
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 5:19 PM
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    Martyn1981
    What do you do if you have loads of contaminated ex-coal generating sites, and maintaining them costs a fortune ....... build a PV farm perhaps?

    US Utilities Turning Shuttered Coal Generating Facilities Into Solar Power Plants
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 5:38 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Shadow chancellor rebukes government for ‘destruction’ of UK solar industry

    McDonnell, responding to chancellor Philip Hammond’s spring statement, said that the government had “single-handedly destroyed our solar industry”, adding that 12,000 jobs were lost as a result of cuts to subsidies.
    Leonie Greene, director of advocacy and new markets at the STA, said she was pleased to see the shadow chancellor reference the problems facing the solar industry and called for the technology to receive a level playing field, including fair market access and tax treatment.
    Chris Law, SNP MP for Dundee West, referenced how solar remained locked out of CfD auctions, putting the technology at a “clear competitive disadvantage” to other forms of renewable generation.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 14th Mar 18, 10:13 AM
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    NigeWick
    build a PV farm perhaps?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Instead of HPC? Excellent idea.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Mar 18, 11:10 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Instead of HPC? Excellent idea.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Here's another thought, my 'German fan' keeps stating that EDF can build another nuclear powerstation for £70/MWh, rather than the £97/MWh for HPC.

    So ....... as HPC construction has barely started, why not prove that by building HPC at £70/MWh and saving us £27/MWh in subsidy = £24bn.

    Then take that £24bn and spend it on off-shore wind at the latest contract (2022/23 allocation) of approx £62/MWh in todays money.

    Assuming wholesale prices of £50/MWh, and a subsidy top up of £12/MWh that £24bn would get us:-

    £24bn / 15yrs = £1.6bn pa

    £1.6bn / £12/MWh = 135TWh

    135TWh is approx 40% of UK leccy consumption, v's the 7% from HPC.

    Just a thought?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 14th Mar 18, 12:05 PM
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    zeupater
    Here's another thought, my 'German fan' keeps stating that EDF can build another nuclear powerstation for £70/MWh, rather than the £97/MWh for HPC.

    So ....... as HPC construction has barely started, why not prove that by building HPC at £70/MWh and saving us £27/MWh in subsidy = £24bn.

    Then take that £24bn and spend it on off-shore wind at the latest contract (2022/23 allocation) of approx £62/MWh in todays money.

    Assuming wholesale prices of £50/MWh, and a subsidy top up of £12/MWh that £24bn would get us:-

    £24bn / 15yrs = £1.6bn pa

    £1.6bn / £12/MWh = 135TWh

    135TWh is approx 40% of UK leccy consumption, v's the 7% from HPC.

    Just a thought?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    I didn't calculate the impact at the time, but had the same thought when I saw the EDF comment .... after-all HPC isn't exactly a 'first-of-kind' build ... it's a little akin to the first customer to buy an EV or TV having to pay all of the development costs on the promise that all future deliveries will be priced according to production cost!

    If developing countries such as India are managing to look at building solar capacity in 3GWp increments without significant detrimental impact to their grid I can't see why the UK can't look at similar increments, as long as they're well matched to centralised pumped storage or distributed embedded batteries.

    Someone in Whitehall really does need to get their pencils out and ensure that the tax-paying consumer gets the best deal available - as you say, if EDF now say they can build cheaper, then why aren't they being forced to deliver cheaper - if they look to take the long-term benefit, why should they not absorb the short-term risk too ?

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 14-03-2018 at 12:10 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Mar 18, 12:50 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hi

    If developing countries such as India are managing to look at building solar capacity in 3GWp increments without significant detrimental impact to their grid I can't see why the UK can't look at similar increments, as long as they're well matched to centralised pumped storage or distributed embedded batteries.

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Yep, it's never been a major concern of mine, despite the many claims that the grid would be flooded at times with PV. Those 'times' as far as I can tell are a few hours, on Sundays, in the best 3 or 4 months, if the weather is great, hardly a massive annual loss if generation is curbed.

    Of course, now, any concerns I did have that PV would be limited to around 7-10% in the UK without storage, have disappeared completely due to a complimentary co-incidence of EV's.

    So I'm even now starting to reconsider something I said way back that 20% of supply from PV with storage, would be possible, it may actually be higher if PV becomes dirt cheap, or more correctly, extra PV panels become dirt cheap.

    I know that nuclear supporters get upset when comparisons to nuclear are made, but it's a bit frightening to think that that 40% from off-shore wind I mentioned would be subsidised simply from the savings of rolling out nuclear at £70/MWh rather than £97/MWh.

    Obviously, the potential alternative amount of wind and PV generation increases exponentially as they approach the wholesale rate of leccy, and that's the very incredible thing that they are now doing, much to my shock.

    This article points to a £1/MWh saving on off-shore wind, simply from improved piling, and I assume many such savings will arrive in the next few years. And of course the end of the MIP, further falling costs, longer life expectancies and some increased efficiency, will result in significant further reductions in the cost of PV.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 14th Mar 18, 3:16 PM
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    pile-o-stone
    So Aus$6k is approx £3,400.

    Even taking into account the MIP which Europe has, and the fact that many Aus properties may well be single storey, that's still a staggering price.

    Goes to show what can be achieved if the industry is supported and supply chains (importers, wholesalers and retailers) aren't damaged by boom and bust political decisions.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    One reason for the higher prices we pay for solar in the UK is because of EU tariffs on solar panels.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/08/solar-industry-says-eu-tariffs-chinese-imports-will-raise-panel-prices

    According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.

    These tariffs don't just hit solar panels. I saw an article the other day that said there is a 100% tariff on imported processed food goods. This has a huge impact on developing countries who produce the raw materials, but are not able to manufacture the end products, which prevents them setting up factories and employing people. It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more money out of coffee than Africa does, due to these production tariffs.

    The sooner we get out of the protectionist EU, the better. *steps down from soap box*
    3.68kW Split E/W & 1.5kW East solar arrays.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 14th Mar 18, 4:03 PM
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    zeupater
    One reason for the higher prices we pay for solar in the UK is because of EU tariffs on solar panels.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/08/solar-industry-says-eu-tariffs-chinese-imports-will-raise-panel-prices

    According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.

    These tariffs don't just hit solar panels. I saw an article the other day that said there is a 100% tariff on imported processed food goods. This has a huge impact on developing countries who produce the raw materials, but are not able to manufacture the end products, which prevents them setting up factories and employing people. It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more money out of coffee than Africa does, due to these production tariffs.

    The sooner we get out of the protectionist EU, the better. *steps down from soap box*
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Hi

    That's what the MIP that Martyn1981 mentioned is ... 'Minimum Import Price', an EU single market trade protectionism measure which helps EU (/mainly German) manufacturers at the expense of all EU consumers ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Mar 18, 5:01 PM
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    Martyn1981
    According to that article, there is a 30% tariff on imported solar panels. It's interesting that when Trump put tariffs on solar panels he was accused of trying to destroy the market for PV in favour of coal. When the EU puts tariffs on solar panels you don't hear a peep.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Actually there's been much more than a peep, it's been an extremely controversial issue for years with most of the solar industry up in arms. Just like in the US, it protects a tiny number of manufacturing jobs, but negatively impacts 10's or 100's of thousands of jobs in the wider solar industry.

    Last year the vote to remove it was 14 in favour, 1 against and 13 abstentions. As the 'in favour' vote wasn't a majority, the MIP survived on what I grudgingly admit is democracy, but can I believe also be classed as a technicality.

    You're right about the 30%, at least that's the figure I've heard that European panel prices differ from Asian prices. The impact on solar prices is therefore about 10% on residential, as the panels represent about 30% of the install cost, and about 15% on PV farms where the panels represent about 50% of the install price.

    What a mess.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 15th Mar 18, 10:05 AM
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    NigeWick
    Someone in Whitehall really does need to get their pencils out and ensure that the tax-paying consumer gets the best deal available
    Originally posted by zeupater
    But, it's not *their* money so why would they bother?

    Exit stage left mumbling obscenities.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 15th Mar 18, 11:01 AM
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    silverwhistle
    But, it's not *their* money so why would they bother?
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    I rather suspect that they have neither the time nor the energy at the moment.

    Further back they could only intervene if there was some political clout behind them, and similarly in the corridors at Brussels. If we'd have taken it all a bit more seriously and put a bit more effort in to lobbying there may well have been different outcomes.

    We were, and at the moment still are, part of the EU, and I would suggest rather than simply blame a convenient scapegoat that we look at our government for their contribution, being such enthusiasts for solar, wind, an' all..
    Last edited by silverwhistle; 15-03-2018 at 11:03 AM. Reason: sp
    • Mnd
    • By Mnd 15th Mar 18, 3:58 PM
    • 503 Posts
    • 606 Thanks
    Mnd
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5503953/New-solar-panels-harvest-energy-rain-sunshine.htm

    This may be interesting to you all
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 16th Mar 18, 10:03 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Hi

    That's what the MIP that Martyn1981 mentioned is ... 'Minimum Import Price', an EU single market trade protectionism measure which helps EU (/mainly German) manufacturers at the expense of all EU consumers ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Ah! I did wonder. I did a google of MIP, but it came up with all sorts.

    There's a ton of protectionism in the EU. I was reading that there is a 100% tariff on processed food. This impacts food producing countries, because while they can supply the cheap raw materials, they can't put them together and sell them cost effectively in the EU. So instead of being able to set up factories to produce food (and employee a lot of people), they can only farm and ship it to the EU.

    It's an appalling fact that Germany makes more from coffee production than Africa does. Couple this with the EU Common Agricultural Policy providing crop surpluses that are then dumped on third-world markets, you can see why it difficult for developing countries to grow their agricultural economies.
    3.68kW Split E/W & 1.5kW East solar arrays.
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