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    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
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    zeupater
    Solar ... In the news
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
    Solar ... In the news 7th Jan 13 at 5:36 PM
    Hi All

    Thought it was about time we had a thread specifically to discuss relevant press articles relating to solar pv & thermal ..... so here goes ...

    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 07-01-2013 at 5:48 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
Page 106
    • michaels
    • By michaels 4th Jan 18, 3:01 PM
    • 20,805 Posts
    • 96,362 Thanks
    michaels
    Due to the stall/flatlining and trade tariffs in EU pricing, PPAs are occasionally used as electricity futures contracts by the sector to hedge against wholesale price rises and was the one avenue open to the UK company, Lark energy (solar) before their collapse a few months ago.

    These sites are barely profitable with frequency control batteries to catch the frequency market, but even then such facilities [solar+batteries+arbitrage] are generally less profitable (per Euro invested) than batteries+arbitrage, such is the nature of hedging the energy futures market.


    Solar pv is going to have to become a lot less expensive before it's truly subsidy free especially with the rises in land costs and future value to construction.
    Still, as you lot decided to vote to leave Europe, [ slow ] perhaps enough of your agricultural farms will go bankrupt to make them more attractive as solar farms if the £ recovers some of its purchase power.

    All you have to do to make solar+batteries/arbitrage profitable is to destabilise your grid - but that would be a crazy thing to do, wouldn't it......
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    Then again we might be able to pay world prices for our panels rather than the ludicrous import tariff to support German panel manufacturers to maintain a few thousand German jobs (is it thousands or only hundreds?) at the expense of hundreds of millions of energy consumers across Europe. In a supposedly democratic EU how can it be that the interests of such a small minority can override that of everyone else.....
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Jan 18, 3:48 PM
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    Martyn1981
    In a supposedly democratic EU how can it be that the interests of such a small minority can override that of everyone else.....
    Originally posted by michaels
    It seems to be down to a quirk of the voting rules. The vote to remove the MIP was 14 in favour, 1 against, and 13 abstentions. As 14/28 is not a majority, the motion failed.

    I can see the value in a majority vote, but 14 to 1 seems pretty solid to me.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 4th Jan 18, 5:42 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    It seems to be down to a quirk of the voting rules. The vote to remove the MIP was 14 in favour, 1 against, and 13 abstentions. As 14/28 is not a majority, the motion failed.

    I can see the value in a majority vote, but 14 to 1 seems pretty solid to me.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    This is exactly the reason I voted to leave the EU, complete lack of democracy and the inability to reform itself. Plus the rise of the extreme right in Europe and threat it poses to EU policies.
    • tunnel
    • By tunnel 4th Jan 18, 11:08 PM
    • 2,548 Posts
    • 7,851 Thanks
    tunnel
    New wind and solar power in Colorado is now cheaper than existing coal plants
    Here's a link someone posted on a share forum i follow, makes for interesting reading.
    http://www.cleancooperative.com/news/new-wind-and-solar-power-in-colorado-is-now-cheaper-than-existing-coal-plants
    2 kWp SEbE , 2kWp SSW & 2.5kWp NWbW.....in sunny North Derbyshire
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 8:01 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Here's a link someone posted on a share forum i follow, makes for interesting reading.
    http://www.cleancooperative.com/news/new-wind-and-solar-power-in-colorado-is-now-cheaper-than-existing-coal-plants
    Originally posted by tunnel
    As LCOE values for alternative energy technologies continue to decline, in some scenarios the full-lifecycle costs of building and operating renewables-based projects have dropped below the operating costs alone of conventional generation technologies such as coal or nuclear. This is expected to lead to ongoing and significant deployment of alternative energy capacity.
    Yep, T, that's the killer for FF and nuclear, when they simply can't compete on any level.

    It's interesting to see an attempt to knock subsidy free PPA deals for PV (and on-shore wind ones should happen this year too hopefully) by a nuclear supporter. I guess the simple response is to ask when we can expect to see subsidy free nuclear PPA deals in the UK?

    I think the falling costs of RE have caught out almost all of the detractors now, last year was especially fun, we had these old (and rather silly) estimates quoted even in September:-

    Hi Martyn - I don't know where you got the £50/MWh for solar from - UK bricing is not the same as elsewhere because it includes transmission costs (per/MWh) which we do not include in European or LCOE pricing.

    The latest projections (last November) I can find for the UK are that by 2030 (priced to a 2012 benchmark for their 'Contract for Difference' contract comparisons.) is:

    By 2030
    Onshore wind: £45-72/MWh
    Solar £59-73/MWh
    Offshore wind £85-109/MWh
    Nuclear £69-99/MWh.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/566567/BEIS_Electricity_Generation_Cost_Report.pdf

    There will no doubt be some movement in the ranges here but I don't see how that could be by the margins you suggest - especially as the pricing does not include the extras required to address problems with non dispatchable (intermittent) supplies.
    We can use gas, but that defeats the object aas it massively devalues the investment in clean renewables.
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    And of course later that same month we saw contracts issued for off-shore wind at £57.50/MWh.

    So offshore wind at £85-109/MWh in 2030, or £57.50 in 2023, hmm!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 5th Jan 18, 9:44 AM
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    NigeWick
    Solar pv is going to have to become a lot less expensive before it is truly subsidy free especially with the rises in land costs and future value of land to construction.
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    Seems to me there's a LOT of roof space where solar can be retrofitted or even built in to new construction. Is $30 per MWh that much more expensive than nuclear, gas or coal generation?
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 5th Jan 18, 11:39 AM
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    zeupater
    Seems to me there's a LOT of roof space where solar can be retrofitted or even built in to new construction. Is $30 per MWh that much more expensive than nuclear, gas or coal generation?
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Hi

    In many cases the net effect of solar pv on rural acreage is pretty much zero .. sheep seem to love their facilities maintenance role in the power generation sector, although the pay isn't too good, the job satisfaction with tax-free benefit such as free sheltered accommodation & free as much as you can eat buffet meal service seems to provide a welcome uplift in their standard of living over their rather damp & relatively miserable 'open sky' cousins ..

    A good friend of mine has 5MWp of panels on his land & the only difference seems to be that some cattle & sheep have swapped fields ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 3:13 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Giant PV farms, they're like buses .......
    On the subject of subsidy free PV farms (and the benefits of PPA's), here's another one, a very big 'nother one!

    Second huge solar farm in the works as INRG plots 120MW post-subsidy array

    Hampshire-based INRG Solar is plotting a 120MW solar array near S!!!!horpe in what could be the country!!!8217;s second proposed solar farm of significant infrastructure status.

    And the project, which is expected to enter planning later this year, could also be developed alongside a 50MW battery storage facility.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Nicolai Grenovski
    • By Nicolai Grenovski 5th Jan 18, 3:24 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Nicolai Grenovski
    Yep, T, that's the killer for FF and nuclear, when they simply can't compete on any level.

    It's interesting to see an attempt to knock subsidy free PPA deals for PV (and on-shore wind ones should happen this year too hopefully) by a nuclear supporter. I guess the simple response is to ask when we can expect to see subsidy free nuclear PPA deals in the UK?

    I think the falling costs of RE have caught out almost all of the detractors now, last year was especially fun, we had these old (and rather silly) estimates quoted even in September:-

    And of course later that same month we saw contracts issued for off-shore wind at £57.50/MWh.

    So offshore wind at £85-109/MWh in 2030, or £57.50 in 2023, hmm!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    It's interesting that yet again you equate fossil fuels with nuclear (other than as baseload provision) - I cannot think of a single scientific or academic group that agrees with you on the subject.

    Also, I did not "knock PPA deals" - I simply explained why they are a symptom of a lack of investment in solar.
    It seems you are unwilling to discuss the subject - may I suggest you do not raise issues which you do not wish to see discussed on a discussion board.

    As to the failure of your BEIS to accurately predict the future cost of wind which is, I note, a range of the three sites (£57.50 to £74.25/MWh in 2022-3 [2012 pricing]) that were a surprise to the entire sector, then surely that is something for you to take up with them instead of constantly attacking anyone who quoted them at the time - your claim that such quotes are an 'attack' on wind/solar is nothing short of perverse.
    Yet you keep on raising it as if it is some battle you won against your own country.

    So do try to calm down and remain on subject - this is a solar news site, not your personal anti-nuclear blog.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 5th Jan 18, 4:20 PM
    • 3,367 Posts
    • 1,844 Thanks
    lstar337
    On the subject of subsidy free PV farms (and the benefits of PPA's), here's another one, a very big 'nother one!

    Second huge solar farm in the works as INRG plots 120MW post-subsidy array
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    The forum wont let you type S!!!!horpe! Cos it has a naughty word in it.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 4:38 PM
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    Martyn1981
    The forum wont let you type S!!!!horpe! Cos it has a naughty word in it.
    Originally posted by lstar337
    LOL, I missed that. Seems a bit unfair on S!!!!horpe ..... oops I did it again.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jan 18, 8:23 AM
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    Martyn1981
    This article caught my eye, not just because it's about using PV and storage to help with disasters and grid resiliency, but because all such uses and deployments will mean an ever faster and greater rollout of storage, from which we all (me included ) will benefit in the longer term. Or to be clearer, I'll be able to play with storage sooner as the 'longer term' gets shortened.

    New Florida legislation could make solar-plus-storage the go-to for disaster relief and resiliency
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Jan 18, 11:01 AM
    • 2,869 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    sheep seem to love their facilities maintenance role in the power generation sector
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I read somewhere that some are growing mushrooms under PV panels. And in India, they're putting panels over rivers & canals to prevent water evaporation.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Jan 18, 11:06 AM
    • 2,869 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    It's interesting that yet again you equate fossil fuels with nuclear.
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    Perhaps because fossil fuels and nuclear are not renewables and they are highly polluting either during or after generation.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jan 18, 11:46 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Perhaps because fossil fuels and nuclear are not renewables and they are highly polluting either during or after generation.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Very true, plus, of course, I was talking about the economics, but according to him, they don't share the same economic laws as each other, or renewables, and he "cannot think of a single scientific or academic group that agrees with you [me] on the subject."

    At some point FF supporters and nuclear campaigners have to accept that renewables have won the economic fight. But till then it's still interesting and fun to exchange information.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Jan 18, 8:22 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Buffalo not bull
    The world keeps moving forward.

    Tesla says solar roof production has started in Buffalo

    (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) said on Tuesday it began manufacturing its premium solar roof tiles at the company’s Buffalo, New York factory last month and has started surveying the homes of customers who made a deposit of $1,000 to reserve the product last year.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jan 18, 11:37 AM
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    • 11,309 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    On the subject of subsidy free PV farms (and the benefits of PPA's), here's another one, a very big 'nother one!

    Second huge solar farm in the works as INRG plots 120MW post-subsidy array
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    This article gives a bit more detail about the new scheme, but more importantly looks into the difficulties of going subsidy free in the UK. It looks tough, but not impossible, and solar costs keep falling further and further, certainly further than I'd even dreamed they could by this point in time.

    INRG in pursuit of ‘perfect answer’ for subsidy-free solar economics
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jan 18, 8:45 PM
    • 4,172 Posts
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    zeupater
    Hi

    Just reading one of the news feeds I usually use for updates & noticed that it had picked up on a tweet from Ofgem a few hours ago ...
    Feed-in Tariff rates will remain current until March 2018. Future tariff rates can be found here: http://ow.ly/EnpG30hGNNZ
    ... so no change in the tariff applicable for new systems for now ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Jan 18, 8:27 AM
    • 6,981 Posts
    • 11,309 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Hi

    Just reading one of the news feeds I usually use for updates & noticed that it had picked up on a tweet from Ofgem a few hours ago ...

    ... so no change in the tariff applicable for new systems for now ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    That's interesting, it's very slightly different to the list I've been using in the FAQ's (by about 0.1p/kWh) every quarter. I'll change the reference to this document instead.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 12th Jan 18, 3:29 PM
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    • 5,389 Thanks
    zeupater
    That's interesting, it's very slightly different to the list I've been using in the FAQ's (by about 0.1p/kWh) every quarter. I'll change the reference to this document instead.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    ... I'd guess that the link Ofgem provided would be the official list! ...
    Last edited by zeupater; 12-01-2018 at 3:34 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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