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  • FIRST POST
    bernlyn
    water softner help in chosing and is this true
    • #1
    • 7th Feb 07, 5:33 AM
    water softner help in chosing and is this true 7th Feb 07 at 5:33 AM
    i have decided to get either a kinetico 2020c or a crown Twin Cylinder Non Electric water softner.

    1. HOWEVER when i phoned and enquired about the crown the sales person said that yes they were good and gave me the sales pitch. i then asked about the kinetico and she said that it was the best out of the 2. the price difference was crown !!!163;650 and kinetico !!!163;840 i said i wanted to get more quotes.

    2. the 2 company i phoned said that the crown was very good and was a good choice. when i asked about the kinetico she said right away that they werent very reliable. she then stated that the companies that sell the kinetico get bigger profits on selling the kinetico softners and they installed over 280 crowns last year and only had 4/5 faulty machines but the kinetico they had just over 40% returns on faulty machines.

    i also said that i cannt find any reviews on the crowns and she said that crown make other softners aswell such as Twin Tec, mini max, calmag, homesoft and a few others. is this true and how can i find this out. i have tried the net but cannt find anything to verify this.

    the price of the crown[!!!163;636] and the kinetico was !!!163;699 and compared to the first company there is a big price difference


    how would you decide which one to install.
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    • gaschick
    • By gaschick 6th Sep 17, 9:26 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    gaschick
    Thanks, the present softener isn't plugged in to the mains, so we seem to be quite limited in the choice of softener as the cheaper ones seem to be all electric.
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 6th Sep 17, 10:45 PM
    • 6,712 Posts
    • 19,592 Thanks
    Doc N
    Thanks, the present softener isn't plugged in to the mains, so we seem to be quite limited in the choice of softener as the cheaper ones seem to be all electric.
    Originally posted by gaschick
    The prices you mentioned seem extraordinarily high - is there no way you could fit one of the much cheaper electric models?

    You could replace the resin, but at 12 years old I wouldn't recommend it. Even if the resin's replaced, something else is likely to go. New machine's best - but not at the prices mentioned.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 7th Sep 17, 7:42 AM
    • 4,650 Posts
    • 2,907 Thanks
    csgohan4
    You get what you pay for, I got a monarch Ultra Solo , it's non electric which is useful, but it's still way under 1k.
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 7th Sep 17, 8:22 AM
    • 6,712 Posts
    • 19,592 Thanks
    Doc N
    You get what you pay for.......
    Originally posted by csgohan4
    Not always, particularly with water softeners. Most people know very little about them, what they do, how they work, and how little they actually cost to manufacture.

    And all that leads to smoke and mirrors claims, high prices and confusion marketing. Exactly as it has been with things like double glazing and solar panels.

    There's no need to pay more than £450 tops for a perfectly good, very reliable softener for a large family. Pretty much the same model, from the same manufacturer, with a few minor variations, is sold however under a different brand name for £1200 through different channels. Someone will come to your house, maybe, with a glossy brochure, and he'll make a huge profit on the sale, but it will still in essence be almost the same softener that you could have bought for less than £450.

    I discovered this the hard way, but it's a well concealed secret that the trade don't want you to learn. It's not a case of getting what you pay for - more a case of paying what the retailer can screw out of you because you don't understand the way the market operates.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 7th Sep 17, 8:26 AM
    • 4,650 Posts
    • 2,907 Thanks
    csgohan4
    Not always, particularly with water softeners. Most people know very little about them, what they do, how they work, and how little they actually cost to manufacture.

    And all that leads to smoke and mirrors claims, high prices and confusion marketing. Exactly as it has been with things like double glazing and solar panels.

    There's no need to pay more than £450 tops for a perfectly good, very reliable softener for a large family. Pretty much the same model, from the same manufacturer, with a few minor variations, is sold however under a different brand name for £1200 through different channels. Someone will come to your house, maybe, with a glossy brochure, and he'll make a huge profit on the sale, but it will still in essence be almost the same softener that you could have bought for less than £450.

    I discovered this the hard way, but it's a well concealed secret that the trade don't want you to learn. It's not a case of getting what you pay for - more a case of paying what the retailer can screw out of you because you don't understand the way the market operates.
    Originally posted by Doc N

    Unfortunately that statement is only applicable for sub 1k models. I agree a lot of the softeners are rebranded, you could have Harveys model for example under a different brand. but the key is the specs and how efficient in using water and salt.


    That was the purpose of this thread and a lot of people have already mentioned the specific specs of some of the more popular models which is why I chose my particular one.


    Specifically I bought the softener independent from the installers from a plumbing merchant, that way rip off potential is lower
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 7th Sep 17, 9:36 AM
    • 6,712 Posts
    • 19,592 Thanks
    Doc N
    Another option for anyone wanting non-electric, then - and the price doesn't seem out of the way either.

    Are you pleased with it? It's not a model I know much about, but your comments would make a useful addition to the thread.

    Does it use block and tablet salt? Sounds a useful facility.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 7th Sep 17, 9:31 PM
    • 4,650 Posts
    • 2,907 Thanks
    csgohan4
    the one I have used tablet and hence cheaper to buy to refill. I read all the pages before I made my decision to buy mine, seems to be the most efficient and in my price range for me.


    Everyone is different and has different requirements so someone else may have their own opinion
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • cheap-information
    • By cheap-information 7th Sep 17, 10:34 PM
    • 154 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    cheap-information
    You won't go wrong with a Tapworks AD11

    I did a lot of research before mine and it made the most sense, buy one and get it installed, only costs around £80 for labour unlike the branded ones which give an all in price. Cheaper salt also
    • cherylsurrey
    • By cherylsurrey 8th Sep 17, 8:33 PM
    • 160 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    cherylsurrey
    I also have the Tapworks AD11, it's been working well for just over 3 years, and I am very happy with it.
    • aamarsh
    • By aamarsh 19th Dec 17, 6:33 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    aamarsh
    I have a Twintec S1. Worked non stop for 14 years. Recently I notice a leak from the elbow of the drain pipe. Any DIY solution please
    • Lamy
    • By Lamy 23rd Dec 17, 10:56 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Lamy
    I am thinking about getting either
    Tapworks AD11 or an Atlantis AT210
    I can't seem to find in the specifications whether either of them will impede water pressure?
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 23rd Dec 17, 3:29 PM
    • 6,712 Posts
    • 19,592 Thanks
    Doc N
    I am thinking about getting either
    Tapworks AD11 or an Atlantis AT210
    I can't seem to find in the specifications whether either of them will impede water pressure?
    Originally posted by Lamy
    This is an uneducated guess, but I'd say it's likely that they'll both impede water pressure to some extent - it goes with the territory.

    The exact extent is something only the manufacturer/vendor will be able to confirm.
    • Lamy
    • By Lamy 24th Dec 17, 10:47 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Lamy
    This is an uneducated guess, but I'd say it's likely that they'll both impede water pressure to some extent - it goes with the territory.

    The exact extent is something only the manufacturer/vendor will be able to confirm.
    Originally posted by Doc N
    Thank you .
    • Save2017
    • By Save2017 23rd Jan 18, 9:50 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Save2017
    I am shopping for a water softner and the salesperson I spoke ot last said the could throw in a kitchen sink tap with a bypass and it has its own charcoal type filter so it is more like a brita filter and not a salt filter.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 23rd Jan 18, 10:03 PM
    • 3,910 Posts
    • 5,412 Thanks
    Nick_C
    I am shopping for a water softner and the salesperson I spoke ot last said the could throw in a kitchen sink tap with a bypass and it has its own charcoal type filter so it is more like a brita filter and not a salt filter.
    Originally posted by Save2017
    Be aware that you need to have a supply to your kitchen sink that is not softened.

    If you plumb the softener in where the supply enters the property and you don't have an untreated supply in the kitchen, then you will need a reverse osmosis filtration system to remove any excess sodium from the softened water.
    • chillcoat
    • By chillcoat 1st May 18, 12:28 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    chillcoat
    Thanks everyone for a brilliant thread - this is the best resource I have found anywhere on the web about water softeners. I'd like to contribute my own experience and hope it will help.

    I got Harveys in to demonstrate a softener and signed up for their three month free trial. They quoted an eye-watering £1600 for the softener plus an additional £100 for the under-sink hard water filter tap. When I rang to cancel the trial it was like calling to cancel your Sky TV contract: suddenly the price came down to about £1200. Not cheap enough so they came to remove the unit - for free, as they promised.

    I've now had a Monarch Midi fitted. It cost £800 in total: £450 for the softener and about £350 to get a good plumber to fit it and add a few extra valves which weren't included.

    The only thing to be aware of is the size of the units: the Monarch Midi is surprisingly large and takes up most of a kitchen cupboard. I had to pull out my washing machine and run the pipes behind it into a corner cupboard. Conversely the Harveys unit fits under the kitchen sink.

    So overall I saved £400 by getting the Monarch fitted, and if I knew how to plumb/DIY with confidence I could potentially have done it for less. Just note that even the "high flow 22mm" kit sold by some places includes the right hoses but not the right valves; any plumber will know which parts to replace.
    • kittyscruff
    • By kittyscruff 13th May 18, 1:29 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    kittyscruff
    Hi - I've been reading 'closed' threads and replies on this topic, and I have some specific questions, if anyone can help - I can't seem to get a message through to the expert contributor - Gromituk...

    I've had quotes from Harveys and Kinetic - clearly not the cheapest options. Then I discovered the Monarch Watersilk range (£400-500), and the Water2Buy systems (£600). I have acertained that there is some maintenance on these units where there isn't on the Harveys / Kinetic systems. Have I got this right? I like the idea of simply having to replace salt blocks and no flushing out / cleaning every year or so.

    Gromituk mentioned the metered systems which seem to have an advantage over the non-metered? I don't want to sacrifice any pressure. Nor do I want to have regeneration occurring while we're using water, hence decreasing or losing water supply.

    As for electric vs non-electric - I'm a little confused over the benefits from one system to the other apart from having control over the timing of regeneration (and the energy consumption).

    Finally, I'm concerned to read on some threads that many boilers shouldn’t use softened water. We are replacing our old central heating and immersion storage tank system in the next 6 months to a megaflow system (with heating being electric, so no combi boiler) but I don't want to have issues before the new boiler is installed.

    Appreciate any advice - thank you!
    • manda1205
    • By manda1205 13th May 18, 2:30 PM
    • 2,331 Posts
    • 6,489 Thanks
    manda1205
    I have a monarch and it doesn't need any maintenance other than keeping it full of salt. I don't flush it or clean it. It doesn't say you have to in the instructions and monarch have said little needs to be done to maintain them. It's been in for 7 years now and only once had bother but as in guarantee monarch came and fixed it. It is electric and again no bother with that. And also metered. It meters how much water is flowing through the system so then it can gauge how often a regen should be. For a family of 2, this happens at midnight and around every 3 days.
    As for the boiler issue. Mine is a combi Worcester Bosch oil boiler and it was Bosch who told me to get a softener. As scale clogged up our heat exchanger in the first year the boiler was put in. They wouldn't replace it again unless we put a softener in. Most boilers can cope with softened water just check with the manufacter first.
    Hope that helps a bit.
    • malc_b
    • By malc_b 14th May 18, 9:16 AM
    • 1,006 Posts
    • 385 Thanks
    malc_b
    If you want regeneration to happen during the night then you need electric otherwise how does it know the time? You can have timer only, so regens when you set it to (like a CH timeclock), say 2am every 3 days. Or you can have meter which measures the water you use. That then wait until you have used say 75% of the capacity then regen that night. Usually there is also a default regen anyway after so many days to keep things fresh. Metered saves water and salt so is cheaper to run but more expensive to buy.

    Boilers can have 2 sides. A combi will have a hot water side. This is always softened if you don't want it to fur up, so using a softener is fine and better than the inline ones that would be fitted by the installer. The CH side also needs water. Some manufacturers used to say don't use softened water on the CH side but now that has changed. If it doubt just connect the filling loop to an unsoftened water source.
    • Motchan79
    • By Motchan79 30th Jun 18, 3:45 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Motchan79
    Softener replacement
    If its 12 years old the resin will need to be replaced as it starts to not work or break down. Because they are sealed units it's not easy to open them up and replace the resin and then seal them up again to maintain the pressure and not leak so you are usually best off replacing the softener for a new one as they can't guarantee how well it will work afterwards.
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