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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 27th Nov 06, 4:51 PM
    • 8,111Posts
    • 42,248Thanks
    MSE Martin
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Would you take the job?
    • #1
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:51 PM
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Would you take the job? 27th Nov 06 at 4:51 PM
    This week's Money Moral Dilemma


    Sam is £15,000 in debt and really struggling to make the repayments having been made redundant four months ago. Now at last, there's a job offer, but it's from a doorstep lender. The money is good and would really help, but it depends on selling doorstep debts at very high APRs to lots of vulnerable people. Should (s)he take the job?


    Click reply to enter the money moral maze


    Please remember, be polite to other MoneySavers, even if you disagree with them

    Also read last week's MMD: Pet versus debt


    PS. And just to confirm this is an entirely hypothetical situation. Each week in the email I will be asking those questions. And yes, the lack of detail, the phrasing, all of it is deliberate to envoke debate (nice debate too). Enjoy the money moral maze.



    Last edited by Former MSE Natasha; 29-11-2006 at 8:22 AM.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
Page 1
    • skylight
    • By skylight 27th Nov 06, 4:56 PM
    • 10,424 Posts
    • 16,875 Thanks
    skylight
    • #2
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:56 PM
    • #2
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:56 PM
    Of Course! A job is a job at the end of the day (my personal morals are that I would never work for an Arms company)

    Also, the job doesn't have to be forever - and think of the "MSE" good word spreading you can do!
  • kingshir
    • #3
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    • #3
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    [QUOTE=charlotte664]Of Course! A job is a job at the end of the day QUOTE

    I have to agree with Charlotte664!
  • Gabriel-Ernest
    • #4
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    • #4
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    I wouldn't take it. I've seen what those doorstep merchant scumbags can do to the vulnerable.
    Touch my food ... Feel my fork!
  • JohnInDebt
    • #5
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Nov 06, 4:59 PM
    Yes, otherwise someone else will take it.

    It shouldn't be up to her to protect the vulnerable members of society by not taking a job that someone else (and maybe more aggresive) will take.
    Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes or incorrect grammar is purely coincidental and in no way reflects the intelligence of the author.

    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 28th Nov 06, 9:16 AM
    • 16,510 Posts
    • 12,633 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #6
    • 28th Nov 06, 9:16 AM
    • #6
    • 28th Nov 06, 9:16 AM
    The job involves exploitation.Couldnt do it,them being vulnerable or not,is not the issue.If he was finding it so hard to get any other job,but got offered this one,he would have to ask himself why? Jobs that offer very good pay (commission?) arent always what they are cracked up to be. If anyone saw the tv programme about bailiffs,look at how they acted to make their commission.
    Last edited by hollydays; 28-11-2006 at 10:11 AM.
    • Rafter
    • By Rafter 29th Nov 06, 7:34 AM
    • 3,837 Posts
    • 1,366 Thanks
    Rafter
    • #7
    • 29th Nov 06, 7:34 AM
    • #7
    • 29th Nov 06, 7:34 AM
    Will she be breaking the law? Will the contracts and credit agreements she is getting customers to sign up to be illegal?

    Unlikely if it is a bona fide organisation.

    The fact is if you are on a low income and need £200 to buy a new washing machine for example, the high street banks wont be interested.

    Sure the APR will be high but so are the costs of doorstep collection of the minimum payments.

    Not a job I would want to do, but now would I want to sell cigaretes, work for an arms or gambling organisation.

    In an ideal world, doorstep lending would be banned and there would be a network of credit unions to help those ignored by mainstream financial services companies.

    R
    Smile , it makes people wonder what you have been up to.
  • bateleur
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 06, 8:09 AM
    Ethical Selling
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 06, 8:09 AM
    I feel it's fine for Sam to take the job. There are various ways to stop these kinds of loans being a problem for people, but trying to starve the companies involved of sales staff really isn't one of them !

    Personally I'd like to see more government regulation for loans, but even for people who disapprove of that for political reasons there's always the option of educating the potential loan customers about the risks. (Like introducing them to this site, for example !)
  • Sumostar
    • #9
    • 29th Nov 06, 8:35 AM
    • #9
    • 29th Nov 06, 8:35 AM
    I was in a similar situation some years ago. My Civil Service pay was not enough to live on and the credit card debts were mounting, so I got a job as a debt collector! Don't you love the irony of that?

    Some of the debtors were really struggling, and for those you would inform the lender that there was no hope of recovery and that they should write the debt off; but some had a better lifestyle than me and just didn't want to pay for the hundreds of pounds of nice new stuff that they had ordered from the catalogues! When they were faced with the prospect of a CCJ thet soon changed their mind.
  • lightchaser
    There is a issue about "should we enjoy our work" here, would sam be comfortable selling a product that will get more people into a situation s/he is facing. I guess it is legal, as the Government does not seem to be doing a lot to tackle huge interest charges - guess it helps the money go round, via them!

    I believe that if you are selling a product you need to be pleasant, open, and at least appear to enjoy work - how many time do we just wish that shop assistants would greet with a smile and chatter?

    Coming from Coaching background, it is clear that so many people are locked into situations that they neither can give their best or benefit greatly. Fulfilling dreams is not pie in the sky, it is an actual challenge to test determination and passion.

    If Sam can see beyond this job to the next target - i.e. I will do this to clear significant debt, but my goal is to be employed elsewhere within six months, then that would be the only option - what do they say - no pain, no gain - but ONLY if s/he can focus on the next stage and therefore be relatively happy in the work knowing clear goals.

    I would not work in an arms factory either, nor sell drugs or traffic people, but in certain countries what other choice is there for many people to feed their families.

    Thankfully we have choice in UK - a lot of it! Sam (mythical I know) decide what you want to really do, and go for it!
    Named after my cat, picture coming shortly
    • dunamis
    • By dunamis 29th Nov 06, 9:38 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    dunamis
    Sorry - I don't think the issue is about job enjoyment...it's about whether you actively engage in something you believe is morally wrong. Does Sam believe that selling these products is exploitative? Is Sam willing to abandon her/his moral standards to make some money?

    Maybe Sam needs to talk to the lender about agreeing a more manageable repayment plan, get a job in line with his/her moral standards and continue to look for something that pays better? Nobody said that maintaining a moral position is easy

    The whole 'just take the job for a little while' is a bit of a fudge...it doesn't really make it any more morally acceptable to do it for six months rather than six years...it's still compromising the moral position (assuming that Sam's moral position is at odds with the job which we're not really told).

    dunamis
  • Hotbunnycharlie
    I suppose it depends if sam can stand back and say they would be able to reverse the position. I work for a DMP company and i do know what doorstop lenders are like, i dont think creditors are men i think they just want their money back, however the tactics of some i will admit are morally questionable.

    There are other jobs out there, and other ways of dealing with the debt. On the other hand, someone has to do the job, and if he wanted to be a car parking enforcement officer paid on commission - would that be as questionable?
  • maggiebee48
    Absolutely not!!! Being in a financial mess oneself doesn't justify getting someone else in one, too. There is never any excuse to prey on the vulnerable.
    • golddustmedia
    • By golddustmedia 29th Nov 06, 10:30 AM
    • 796 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    golddustmedia
    I suppose the critical question is:
    "Is the salary based only on commission?"

    If not then take the job but freely advise people it's a bad loan, ok so you don't sell any but you still get an income until they fire you (even a weeks pay would help out!).

    If it's commission only then no as it'd be income only from leading people into the same problems you're in.
  • BARGAINADDICT
    I'd take the job too. the company will employe somebody to the job in the end, so it's not like you are saving them by not taking the job and it will help you out of your situation.
    BARGAINADDICT
  • xela_17
    What seems to have been missed is that to have been offered the job, Sam must have applied for the job. Therefore, he/she must have already thought about the morals of it and come to the conclusion that they were comfortable with it. Therefore, they should take it.
    What did I do at work before I discovered MSE?!

    DFD - WAS: a while ago

    NOW - not sure, due to boyfriend going back to uni for masters and now pgce. Worth it in the long run!
    Proud to be dealing with my debts!
    • Aldahbra
    • By Aldahbra 29th Nov 06, 11:43 AM
    • 315 Posts
    • 3,684 Thanks
    Aldahbra
    I am very surprised at the answers given. There are pleanty of jobs out there, especially at this time of year. Sam would be better off regestering with an agency and doing some temp work.

    How can this type of work ever be justified, even if it is legal.

    No I wouldn't take the work and I am horrified that so many of you would
  • AussieLass
    No I wouldn't take it. I'd rather go out and pick beans in the paddock. On second thought, make that oranges. Beans are a bit back breaking.
    Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia.


  • sheenaf
    Perhaps Sam will have little choice if under pressure from the DWP.
    Totally soul destroying to work in a field you actively despise. I used to work in a high street bank and felt I was providing a valuable service. I left years ago (to start a family) but when I meet ex-colleagues they say it is now all about sell, sell, sell, the customer comes last, all about profit and service has gone out the window. These ex-colleagues are trapped being too old to get another job and on the promise of a good pension but feel they are wasting their lives. Most do charity work to salve their conciense/feel they are doing something worthwhile.
  • redmandarin
    Absolutely not!!! Being in a financial mess oneself doesn't justify getting someone else in one, too. There is never any excuse to prey on the vulnerable.
    by maggiebee48
    Well said, mb48, I agree entirely!
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