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  • FIRST POST
    • Former MSE Wendy
    • By Former MSE Wendy 23rd Jul 09, 2:38 PM
    • 868Posts
    • 1,782Thanks
    Former MSE Wendy
    Have your say on the Big Care Debate
    • #1
    • 23rd Jul 09, 2:38 PM
    Have your say on the Big Care Debate 23rd Jul 09 at 2:38 PM
    What's this about?

    The government has written a report about its long term plan to create a 'National Care Service', to cover care and support for adults, and is looking for public opinion on its proposals. The care and support could be either in individuals' own homes or in a residential home (but not the rent or board in the latter's case).

    At the moment most care is funded by the individual and anyone with assets over 23,000 is liable for costs, which could include having to sell a house or pay thousands. For example someone with Alzheimer’s could have to pay up to 200,000, although the average cost is around 30,000.

    What are the proposed funding options?

    The government report lists three options into how care should be paid for so that it’s fair for everyone. The 3 proposals are:

    Partnership: The responsibility for paying for care would be shared between the Government and the person who has care needs. The Government provides between a quarter and a third of the cost of care, more for people on a low income.

    Insurance: The same as partnership but the Government could help people to prepare to meet the costs that they would have to pay for themselves, through an insurance-based approach. As well as receiving between a third and a quarter of the cost of care, the Government would make it easier for people to take out insurance to cover care costs. It is estimated that the cost of insurance could be around 20,000 to 25,000.

    Comprehensive: Everyone who can afford it would pay into a state insurance scheme [at around the age of 65] meaning everyone who needs care will receive it free. It is estimated that the cost of being in the system could be between 17,000 and 20,000.

    How do you have your say?

    Full details can be found on the www.careandsupport.direct.gov.uk website but you can reply until 13 November via:

    Post: Writing to Green Paper Team, Room 149, Richmond House, 79 Whitehall, London SW1A 2NS

    Online: Leave a comment on the Careandsuport site or the CareandSupport Facebook group

    Email: careandsupport@dh.gsi.gov.uk

    Leaflets: Some GP surgeries, pharmacies and other outlets have a leaflet with specific consultation questions which can be sent back to a freepost address. Let us know if you’ve spotted one of these.

    We will try and submit forum posts to the department too, it should be possible as we were asked to help publicise it (and did it as we believe its a good debate) but it cannot be guaranteed.

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    Last edited by Former MSE Ian; 04-09-2009 at 10:54 AM.
Page 1
  • ceridwen
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:35 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:35 PM
    My thought on this is that the goalposts seem to be shifting every time one takes a look:

    - first: it was a certain amount of money (12,000 I think?) and on a voluntary basis probably and only for one's own needs

    - then it seemed to move onto a rather higher figure and paying into a communal fund and maybe it should be mandatory and maybe, even then, it wouldnt cover all the costs.

    No easy answers as the phrase goes. I can only speak for my own viewpoint - which boils down to: I'm NOT handing over any of MY money to anything just IN CASE I ever had to go into a nursing home. What would be the point? - as I'm not going to go into a nursing home ever anyway.

    I simply dont believe that most people would ever need to go into nursing homes - and, even for those that do, I believe many would choose not to do so. I'd honestly rather carry on in my own home totally regardless of my ability (or otherwise) to do so. I will never ever consider going into a nursing home - NO MATTER WHAT - so what would be the point of paying in case I did???:confused: I wont - end of....It might mean I had struggled on to the extent that I fell downstairs and broke a leg or even my back or something - but that is MY choice...at least I would have stayed in my own home throughout.

    I am simply NOT going to hand over MY money for other people to make the choice (however voluntarily or otherwise) to go into a nursing home. I would simply regard this as being just another tax.....ho hum....yawn....not AGAIN....
    There does have to come a time when one calls a halt on JUST how much money can be taken out of the average low-paid person in the street as taxes to fund other peoples choices...
    Last edited by ceridwen; 28-07-2009 at 7:40 PM.
  • Errata
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:48 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:48 PM
    Wendy could you post this on other relavent boards - Disability and Dosh etc - as the Green Paper on a National Care Service covers working age adults as well as older people.
    .....................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...
    • scotsbob
    • By scotsbob 28th Jul 09, 7:53 PM
    • 4,461 Posts
    • 6,958 Thanks
    scotsbob
    • #4
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:53 PM
    • #4
    • 28th Jul 09, 7:53 PM
    I would simply regard this as being just another tax.......
    Originally posted by ceridwen

    Exactly right.

    I'm joining you on this one mate. No way will I be agreeing to what is a tax in everything but name.

    I'll be off to Switzerland for the injection before I go into a nursing home here.
  • shooter
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 09, 3:10 AM
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 09, 3:10 AM
    This is not just about going into a nursing home but also about the costs of being cared for in your own home. The cost is still extremely High!!!!!!

    I wonder how many people know that You could end up being told how much you are allowed to spend on everyday living (food, gas Electric etc) under the guise of allowable expences and then have every penny that is left taken to pay for someone to care for you when you cannot look after yourself any longer due to ill health be that care at home or in a nursing home (when you have even less say in what YOUR money can be spent on).

    That is what is happening to my mother. She is now bed bound and cannot do anything for herself and regardless of whether she has this care at home or on a nursing home she has NO option but to pay this.

    My mother has chosen to be cared for in her own home. ( she doesn't own it thankfully)

    The council tell her that the maximum she will have to pay is 375 Per week. YES that is 375 per week. This is reduce depending on her individual circumstances (woohoo!!!!), but she cannot decide how to spend her own money. she is told how much she can spend on shopping and they take the rest. Council tax however is an allowable expence so that will be paid, but Life insurance,insurance on her boiler washing machine, (God only knows who will have to pay those bills should they breakdown),cable tv, birthday gift/cards etc are not allowable expences.

    So when you read this think hard about the things that you payout, Credit card bills, insurances, Cable/Satalite TV etc,that you have been doing all your life and how you will pay for these things should you need to pay for care.

    The council charges my mother 16 per hour,(up to a maximum of 375 per week), the carers (who are employed by agencies) get paid approx 6 per hour, surely it doesn't cost 10 per hour, per client, in admin costs.

    Isn't this care what we paid our NI for all our working lives?

    So heaven help us should we ever be in a position to need this. I for one welcome this consultation and personally advocate the partnership approach BUT that the government should pay between 2/3 and 3/4 of the cost from the NI we have paid all our working lives.


    sorry for the rant

    Shooter
    Surely life can't get any worse it has to only get better from hear on out


    January NSD aim 15days
  • petersandyglen
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 09, 8:40 AM
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 09, 8:40 AM
    Actually, once your savings are down to 13,500? The state pays the full cost of looking after you in a nursing home. What is the point in having extra money to spend per week when everything is provided for you by the nursing home?
    Sat. T.V. shopping , doesn't come into it. Peter.
    • weanie
    • By weanie 29th Jul 09, 8:45 AM
    • 249 Posts
    • 180 Thanks
    weanie
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 09, 8:45 AM
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 09, 8:45 AM
    I am told by others that the situation in France is such that individuals [with care needing relatives] have often grouped together to provide care to these people.

    One of the targets of national and local government seems to be to orchestrate 'direct payments' in order to assist individuals needing care and their families to arrange for a more tailored care to be give to those who may need regular help in the home. I am in favour of this.

    Whilst in relative good health, it is easy to take the stand that we will never consider moving into a care home or indeed to have anyone coming into our homes at a cost to us and providing care. Many people currently in care homes or indeed having help in their own homes may have felt exactly the same. Very sadly circumstances involving bereavement, physical and mental ill health and other issues may have forced the acceptance of care upon them. This could well also be the case for many of us.

    The internet allows so many people to communicate and to share problems. I wonder if there would be a useful way for people who are GIVING care to relatives to share not only their experiences but to also pool resources and share the duties of care in a practical way to allow carers to have more time off and holidays - Perhaps an internet site/business waiting for someone to set up????!!
    • DerbyPensioner
    • By DerbyPensioner 29th Jul 09, 9:00 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    DerbyPensioner
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 09, 9:00 AM
    Savings Ethic
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 09, 9:00 AM
    Once again,those who have saved for their old age will pay for those who have spent everything, hidden their savings or just lied.
    There appears no hope for savers so the message must be spend , spend, spend.
  • shooter
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 09, 10:04 AM
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 09, 10:04 AM
    Hi Petersandyglen

    Actually, once your savings are down to 13,500? The state pays the full cost of looking after you in a nursing home. can you point me to any literature that confirms this? We have looked into my mother going into a care (Nursing) home and the rules are the same as having care at home. If your income is above what the government says you need to live on (minimum amount allowed) then you are required to pay! What is the point in having extra money to spend per week when everything is provided for you by the nursing home? The Fact that you have spent your entire life working hard to earn your money, looking to the future and investing in private pentions only to have it all taken to pay for your care needs even though throughout your working life you had paid NI and not used it due to sickness or unemployment. you obviously don't want or need a say in how YOUR money is spent.
    Sat. T.V. shopping , doesn't come into it.
    Ok so you don't need to pay fo the Items mentioned but there are still things that you do need or want that you wouldn't have the money to pay for as you income would be used to pay for your care
    Peter.
    Originally posted by petersandyglen
    shooter
    Last edited by shooter; 29-07-2009 at 10:12 AM.
    Surely life can't get any worse it has to only get better from hear on out


    January NSD aim 15days
  • shooter

    I am told by others that the situation in France is such that individuals [with care needing relatives] have often grouped together to provide care to these people.
    Originally posted by weanie
    Hi Weanie

    That is all very well but families are not always able to do this as we all have to work you support ourselves and or not medical able to do this.

    My mother needs someone (2 people due to H&S rules and regs) 4+ times a day and her needs are extensive!

    Shooter
    Surely life can't get any worse it has to only get better from hear on out


    January NSD aim 15days
  • Errata
    The internet allows so many people to communicate and to share problems. I wonder if there would be a useful way for people who are GIVING care to relatives to share not only their experiences but to also pool resources and share the duties of care in a practical way to allow carers to have more time off and holidays - Perhaps an internet site/business waiting for someone to set up????!!
    Carers UK is the national association for carers. It has information and forums.
    http://www.carersuk.org/Home
    .....................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...
  • dr1209
    WHY HAVE A DEBATE??
    We have all paid 1000s in NI contributions over the years, these were to pay for our NHS treatment should we become ill or infirm. If car insurers take premiums from us we expect them to pay out if the car is damaged, it's the same principal. If the government won't pay out stop paying the premiums!!!
    • scotsbob
    • By scotsbob 29th Jul 09, 11:47 AM
    • 4,461 Posts
    • 6,958 Thanks
    scotsbob
    Once again,those who have saved for their old age will pay for those who have spent everything, hidden their savings or just lied.
    There appears no hope for savers so the message must be spend , spend, spend.
    Originally posted by DerbyPensioner

    Spot on there.

    We have to pay for other people's kids because the parents want to stay at home and not bother working.

    Now the idea is we pay for those, who because they didn't work or bother saving, can't fund their old age.

    The likes of you and me pay for ourselves and the scroungers as well.
  • gb57
    I agree that the whole scheme seems like another way to extract money from those who have worked and saved all their lives, while others who have spent the lot (or never worked )don't have to pay.

    However, it is a difficult one, because there is just not enough money in the public purse to fund either care in one's own home, or care in a "home" for all elderly people who need this kind of help.

    No-one (including me!) wants to sell their home in order to fund "care", but on the other hand why should the public purse pay for "care" so that someone's adult children can inherit mum's or dad's house? A dilemma.

    I think we all believe that we will NEVER go into a "home", and that we will be able to look after ourselves until we just drop dead one day. Sadly, anyone who has watched a parent or relative get old and ill will know that is not always possible. Also, you think that you can look after your mum if she gets ill, but in reality that is not always possible, either.

    I don't have any answers, only questions. The current system seems crazy, with different councils charging different amounts, and some people (see posts above) being left with almost no income, as it all goes for "care". Also, "care in your own home" can just mean someone popping in for 15 minutes, which is useless.

    I definitely DO NOT agree with everyone (who can pay) being taxed a whopping sum of money at retirement age. Pensions have already taken a huge hit, mainly due to Gordon Brown's disastrous Chancellorship. We are all being urged to save and plan for our pension, so then they are just going to take a lump of it away????:rolleyes:

    A question - why is it that you and I won't be eligible for a full state pension unless we have paid NI for X years (39 in my case), but someone who has lived all their life on the dole (oh, sorry, Benefits), suddenly becomes a "pensioner" - with reduced State Pension, but then loads of other "benefits" which bring them up to the same level as the person who has paid in all their life? Sorry, bit off topic there.

    The whole Welfare and Benefits system is a complete and utter MESS and needs total reform from top to bottom. When I was young being on the dole was a disgrace, so if you had to be on it you were desperate to be off it and back to work. I think we should return to that - dole and other "benefits" should be a safety net to be used in extremis, not a way of life. That might free up loads of money to help pay for care for the elderly. Perhaps I should talk to Gordon and Darling!!!
    • lic
    • By lic 29th Jul 09, 3:48 PM
    • 276 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    lic
    Both my inlaws are ill at the moment. MIL has terminal cancer, FIL demetia. Currently both are at home with paid carers, my wife has given up her job to look after them. The Health Authority refuse to grant MIL nursing care so they have to pay 2000 pcm, and with my wife not earning it is hitting the family hard.
    But who cares? No one, they just pay lip service. This Governmet. just grab the headlines with spin and no substance.
    I will be handing my house over to my daughter before I get too infirm, and will gladly let the state, who I have supported all my working life support me!!!
    THE GOVERNMENT ARE JUST THEIVES AND LIARS..
    Lic.
  • MLisking
    I will be handing my house over to my daughter before I get too infirm, and will gladly let the state, who I have supported all my working life support me!!!
    ..
    Originally posted by lic
    Working in health, this is what a lot of older people choose to do - and end up living in squalor because their relatives are "landlords" to their parents and therefore get a say in the adaptations made to a home - I'm not saying all children / relatives are like this, but it is a regular occurance in my field and its awful that people are left powerless, and vulnerable from all angles.

    This is because it is landlords who have to foot some of the bill - and I have seen people who have rented their home their whole lives evicted because the landlord won't contribute (or agree) to simple things (i.e. grab rails, step adaptations).

    An example of this - an older gent who is very immobile is in DESPERATE need of a wet shower room (provided and mostly paid for by the council, clients nephew who now owns the property would have to pay around a third of the cost) can't get this because his nephew (who lives in the house next door) REFUSES. This poor man is living in absolute squalor, and there is nothing the council can do. It is heartbreaking. Not all families take care of their elders.

    We need total reform, and a more unified funding system - having to deal with tory / labour areas is a battlefield. Older people need more power and control, and a simpler way for them to understand how it all works. It breaks my heart that ultimately, it is the person in need who suffers - not the government, not the carers, and not the workers.

    ML.
  • EdInvestor
    I will be handing my house over to my daughter before I get too infirm, and will gladly let the state, who I have supported all my working life support me!!!
    Originally posted by lic

    This will not work.You and you wife need to take action NOW if you want to protect the house from being used to pay for care.There is a way of doing it by switching ownership to tenants in common and leaving each half in trust to the children with lifetime rights for the spouse.See a solicitor.

    That way the council cannot get the house.If you give it to your daughter, they can.
    • Cacran
    • By Cacran 29th Jul 09, 4:47 PM
    • 481 Posts
    • 267 Thanks
    Cacran
    My mother has dementia and is in a care home. My father has to pay almost 500 a month towards her care but he pays it from her occupational and state pension, which is not so bad. He can afford to keep the house going with his own income. If my dad died first then as I understand it, the half of the property that mum owns would be taken to fund her care as she would then be deemed to have much more capital. I realise there is nothing that can be done to change this, just one of theose things.
    Mum is suffering from an illness. She cannot care for her own day to day needs and is not safe to live in an insecure place as she wanders off into the road and things. she is doubly incontinent and is in a sorry state. She needs help with every aspect of her life. If she has a differnet sort of illness which she needed care for, I am under the impression that her care would be covered by the National Health. Because it is an illness in her head, this is not the case. This sort of condition is not just old age, it is serious.
    Keep on trucking!
    • monkeyspanner
    • By monkeyspanner 29th Jul 09, 5:05 PM
    • 2,119 Posts
    • 1,933 Thanks
    monkeyspanner
    My mother has dementia and is in a care home. My father has to pay almost 500 a month towards her care but he pays it from her occupational and state pension, which is not so bad. He can afford to keep the house going with his own income. If my dad died first then as I understand it, the half of the property that mum owns would be taken to fund her care as she would then be deemed to have much more capital. I realise there is nothing that can be done to change this, just one of theose things.
    Mum is suffering from an illness. She cannot care for her own day to day needs and is not safe to live in an insecure place as she wanders off into the road and things. she is doubly incontinent and is in a sorry state. She needs help with every aspect of her life. If she has a differnet sort of illness which she needed care for, I am under the impression that her care would be covered by the National Health. Because it is an illness in her head, this is not the case. This sort of condition is not just old age, it is serious.
    Originally posted by Cacran
    Please investigate NHS funded continuing healthcare if your mothers needs are primarily health related then the NHS are responsible for the financing of her care irrespective of her financial resources. In the first instance you should approach the relevant department in your mother's PCT (primary care trust) and request an assessment. There are a number of threads on this board which deal with this topic. Just do a search for CHC or continuing care.
    • monkeyspanner
    • By monkeyspanner 29th Jul 09, 5:10 PM
    • 2,119 Posts
    • 1,933 Thanks
    monkeyspanner
    Actually, once your savings are down to 13,500? The state pays the full cost of looking after you in a nursing home. What is the point in having extra money to spend per week when everything is provided for you by the nursing home?
    Sat. T.V. shopping , doesn't come into it. Peter.
    Originally posted by petersandyglen
    Capital is not the only factor in the assessment for financial support. Perrsonal income is also assessed and all apart from a weekly pocket money allowance of around 20 is taken as the patiants contribution to the cost of a care home. This income can be from a personal or state pension. No-one is fully supported unless you don't count state pension as a right.
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