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  • FIRST POST
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 6th Oct 18, 8:20 AM
    • 71Posts
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    stickysituation
    Nhs possible redundancy
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 18, 8:20 AM
    Nhs possible redundancy 6th Oct 18 at 8:20 AM
    Hi everyone

    Iím currently working for the nhs where Iíve been arecords clerk for 14 years however over the course of this last 12 months we have been implementing digitalisation meaning no more health records
    The department has gone from around 120 to 40 since they got rid of 80 or so zero hour staff they had. Next month the remaining permanent staff (myself included) are receiving letters informing us of the planned structure for next year (how many whole time equivalent are needed). To be honest we have very very little to do on a daily basis and time is definitely running out for the department. My query is I work really strange hours 7:30 -11:30 am 4 days (myself and my husband work opposite shifts to cover childcare) I know that this structure will surely be wiping the majority of the department out as there is nothing left to do after I leave people are literally wandering around the department until the end of the working day and Iím aware that redeployment is probably looming my concern is I need to stick with these hours because of the children can they make me change hours ? Also I know for a fact there arenít 40plus jobs available within our trust we are all band 2 most of us in part time roles and many of over 50 surely they canít magic these jobs up ?
    To be perfectly honest Iíd much rather take the redundancy if it becomes an option is it likely?
    We are being told nothing because HR are blocking us from being told we are only receiving letters in November out of apparent sympathy as really it should be December!!
    I feel sick to my stomach daily waiting for this
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 6th Oct 18, 9:35 AM
    • 5,501 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 18, 9:35 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 18, 9:35 AM
    Been there done that.

    NHS redundancy is calculated at a minimum rate of 23,000 pa; pro rata for you ofcourse.

    So you’d get roughly £11,000. Which is more than your annual wage from what I can work out?

    Anyway; you must engage with the redeployment and if suitable alternative work is offered and you refuse; no pay out.

    Your childcare is not your employers problem. ( that said does your trust have onsite childcare?)
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 6th Oct 18, 10:21 AM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 18, 10:21 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 18, 10:21 AM
    Not anymore they donít another cut made 🙄no I understand the finding me suitable alternative however if there is no alternative ie 75% similar to what I do which we have been told it must be is this then just a case of redundancy?
    I donít think itís as clear cut as ďchildcare not being their problemĒ parental rights will come into play I work contracted 7;30-11:30 therefore an offer of say 12-4 would be pretty pointless and nothing like what Iím currently doing ?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 6th Oct 18, 10:58 AM
    • 5,650 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 18, 10:58 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 18, 10:58 AM
    Not anymore they donít another cut made 🙄no I understand the finding me suitable alternative however if there is no alternative ie 75% similar to what I do which we have been told it must be is this then just a case of redundancy?
    I donít think itís as clear cut as ďchildcare not being their problemĒ parental rights will come into play I work contracted 7;30-11:30 therefore an offer of say 12-4 would be pretty pointless and nothing like what Iím currently doing ?
    Originally posted by stickysituation
    If you already knew the answer, why did you ask?

    You are an employee. That means that the employer employs you to work, and if the work you do disappears they are legally bound to offer you a suitable alternative job. Not suitable alternative terms. Your childcare arrangements are none of their concern, any more than your weekly flower arranging class would be.

    Broadly speaking, these days if someone wants to be made redundant, then they can't be bothered with doing anything else - there are plenty of people who want the work and not enough jobs to go around when redundancy looms. However, if you approach this from an entitled point of view, then be careful because you might meet up with someone on the other side who wants to make it difficult. In law, they could offer you what the consider to be a suitable alternative, refuse you redundancy pay, and leave it up to you to fight for it.

    HR are not blocking anything. They have legal and policy responsibilities, and they cannot allow processes to start until such time as things are in place all round. If this was just about getting rid of you all and saving money, then they'd have no doubt already have got rid of you all.

    Wait and see what happens. Chances are that nobody is going to wish to insist on you taking a job you don't want, and so you'll be made redundant. There will be enough people who don't want to lose their jobs and can't afford to lose them.
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 6th Oct 18, 11:50 AM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 18, 11:50 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 18, 11:50 AM
    If you already knew the answer, why did you ask?

    You are an employee. That means that the employer employs you to work, and if the work you do disappears they are legally bound to offer you a suitable alternative job. Not suitable alternative terms. Your childcare arrangements are none of their concern, any more than your weekly flower arranging class would be.

    Broadly speaking, these days if someone wants to be made redundant, then they can't be bothered with doing anything else - there are plenty of people who want the work and not enough jobs to go around when redundancy looms. However, if you approach this from an entitled point of view, then be careful because you might meet up with someone on the other side who wants to make it difficult. In law, they could offer you what the consider to be a suitable alternative, refuse you redundancy pay, and leave it up to you to fight for it.

    HR are not blocking anything. They have legal and policy responsibilities, and they cannot allow processes to start until such time as things are in place all round. If this was just about getting rid of you all and saving money, then they'd have no doubt already have got rid of you all.

    Wait and see what happens. Chances are that nobody is going to wish to insist on you taking a job you don't want, and so you'll be made redundant. There will be enough people who don't want to lose their jobs and can't afford to lose them.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Nothing to do with ďcanít be bothered to do anything else 🙄Ē the whole place is a shambles people being moved about right left and centre job role to job role the change over to digitalisation has had a knock on effect on the whole hospital jobs that were there are now gone itís all underhanded rubbish and in actual fact 90% of my colleagues feel the same and arenít actually queuing up for these imaginary job roles that donít exist as they too have been in the role long term and have no want to be shoved into some random role I canít afford to lose my job but I certainly donít intend to be unhappy in my job I have another 30 years to work I was employed as a records clerk thatís the job role I went for the circumstances are unfortunate and yes I know Iíll have to suck it up but given the chance YES Iíd take the money and run and go and work somewhere else NOT within the trust I was simply asking if this was going to ultimately be something that could happen or not
    I thank you for your reply but didnít intend for it to come across as Iím ungrateful and should be happy with whatever job is thrown at me simply because times have changed
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 6th Oct 18, 12:46 PM
    • 33,479 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 18, 12:46 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 18, 12:46 PM
    The smart thing to do is prepare yourself to be engaged in the changes so you get the best outcome for yourself.

    This next restructure may not be the last but you can probably have a decent guess at, how many people they need, what the jobs will be, what hours need covering and the target date for implementation.

    Have there been any changes since the first 80 left that should give a hint of what they want going forward, often people they want to keep get nudged into doing that work, others get less to do

    (Since they were going to notify in Dec with consultation etc. it would have likely been end Jan Feb, no later than year end, all that making them notify earlier could bring the date forward and cost people a month or 2 pay.)

    You can also start looking at what is available around the trust and what hours they have on offer.

    if you really think there is nothing for you and you want to go with a payout then you work towards making that happen, make that the easy option for those driving the process.

    It must be fairly obvious who is the real stakeholder for this reorganisation is and who are their key people, HR will just be there to admin the process.

    The NHS may be a mess but the reality is anyone that does not realise there job will be effected by system changes is on the back foot, being aware of what's going on gives you an advantage to get better outcomes over just waiting for things to happen around you.

    Take this as an opportunity to find better work, upskill etc.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 6th Oct 18, 1:17 PM
    • 5,501 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 18, 1:17 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 18, 1:17 PM
    Your feelings arent really any more relevant than your child care arrangements.

    Parental rights... no.

    You’ve been given the legal position.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 6th Oct 18, 6:05 PM
    • 11,181 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 18, 6:05 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 18, 6:05 PM
    I was employed as a records clerk thatís the job role I went for
    Originally posted by stickysituation
    Like wick trimmers for the lights on Hansom cabs and typists in the Civil Service department I worked in, your role as a records clerk is similar to that of a certain parrot - it has ceased to exist. The typists were offered redeployment at basic clerical grade and all those in the office I worked in accepted.

    You may be offered redeployment, you may be offered redundancy. If redundancy, you've then got to try and find another job. You may be lucky and find one with hours that are suitable for your needs.

    If you have a choice, redeployment may not be such a bad idea.
    • misswansea
    • By misswansea 6th Oct 18, 8:00 PM
    • 53 Posts
    • 45 Thanks
    misswansea
    • #9
    • 6th Oct 18, 8:00 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Oct 18, 8:00 PM
    Hi, it must be very stressful not knowing exactly what is going to happen, meanwhile there's a few things that might help:
    1)Make sure you have a copy of your trust's redundancy policy, which they will follow.
    2) are you a union member? If not find out which union your co-workers are with and consider joining. Your union reps can be a big help in situations like this.
    3) have a look around at what jobs are available in your area, in case you need to find a new employer.

    I also think it unwise to rule out redeployment before you've seen the offer, you can to ask for flexible working and with the NHS becoming a more round the clock service your preferred hours may be welcome.

    Records clerks are being digitally replaced everywhere, if the redeployment offer includes training /qualifications for a new role it could be a smart career move for you.


    I hope you find your perfect new job, with or without the NHS.
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 8th Oct 18, 8:14 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    Thanks to those with the helpful answers yes itís rather unsettling for everyone at the minute and I wonít rule out redeployment of course these doors may open to me for a reason absolutely and having 5 children I suppose I must consider this if itís sonetging they are willing to offer
    We hear that whatever it is that is to be done regarding the restructuring it will be in place by the end of March in time for the new budget year. Iím predicting a minimum of the current workforce to be halved and from where Iím standing they could really cut this further as I said before the work load is that poor even the band 5 bosses are trying to claw at any work we have which is concerning as they clearly have nothing by the time I leave at 11:30 there is no work!
    Again thanks for the replyís itís been very incitful x
    • Wobblydeb
    • By Wobblydeb 9th Oct 18, 12:13 PM
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    Wobblydeb
    I'm not a lawyer, but from my reading you can decline an alternative job on the basis that the hours are not suitable.

    https://www.hrzone.com/community/blogs/carolineactonesplaw/suitable-alternative-employment-whats-it-mean
    I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 9th Oct 18, 12:20 PM
    • 6,821 Posts
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    ohreally
    I don't know which part of the country you're in, Scotland developed and pioneered PIN policies and many trusts across the UK adopted similar.

    Have a read through https://www.gov.scot/Publications/2014/12/3581/4

    Have you involved union?
    Donít be a canít, be a can.
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 6th Nov 18, 1:54 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    Hi again

    So I received my restructure letter and there are in fact a total of 83 people involved and the numbers are being culled down to 25!!! For my band out of the 58 (band 2) they require 15 whole time equivalents.
    We are being desktop selected via points scoring , Iím in no doubt I wonít be a chosen one as I only do 16hrs and Iím pretty confident the will try their hardest to fill the posts with full timers/ people who are more flexible etc that coupled with the fact they are changing the opening hours of the department thus removing my shift too by 30mins.
    Iím now in a 45 day consultation period following which we will have a further 45 day consultation. February will be selection process and 18th feb we will know who had a job the rest served with statutory redundancy notice (obviously we will also be placed on the redeployment list during this notice) however being as though we will be looking at in excess of 50 people there is little to no chance of most being redeployed
    Iíve emailed HR to ask if anyone had preference of redundancy if this was something considered. Being as though they have a lot of people to find places for Iíd hope it would be considered thus maybe saving someone else who is in a better position than myself .
    March 29th is the day all is implemented. So from 18th feb to March 29 thatís around 6 weeks to get remaining staff into a new job !!
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 6th Nov 18, 5:04 PM
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    getmore4less
    The smart ones will start looking now and snap any jobs going first before they get ring fenced for the redeployment pool.

    90 days is very generous. More a sign they are not confident with the proposal.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 7th Nov 18, 1:48 AM
    • 1,598 Posts
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    Manxman in exile
    I've been through two NHS redundancy situations. The first I survived and was redeployed into a job that I really enjoyed.


    In the second my employer made no effort to help me find a suitable alternative employment - from which I concluded they wanted to get rid of me! I wasn't bothered as the trust had gone through several re-organisations and was no longer a happy place to work. I was relieved to escape.


    My general advice would be to try to go for redeployment if possible. If shifts/childcare are a problem, then mavbe not.


    Be careful not to turn down any "suitable alternative position" unreasonably. You could lose any redundancy entitlement.


    If you are not already in a union it is almost certain that it's too late to join now for this problem.
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 7th Nov 18, 1:40 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    The smart ones wonít be looking within the trust as they have put a freeze on all jobs and we will not be placed on the redeployment lists now until after selection thus leaving a very short period to redeploy a hell of a lot of people as far as Iím concerned they will struggle 4 band 5s 7 band 3s and over 50 band 2s to be honest Iíd be glad to get out of there as this restructure is just the first so clearly I wouldnít be safe again
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 7th Nov 18, 1:47 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    I've been through two NHS redundancy situations. The first I survived and was redeployed into a job that I really enjoyed.


    In the second my employer made no effort to help me find a suitable alternative employment - from which I concluded they wanted to get rid of me! I wasn't bothered as the trust had gone through several re-organisations and was no longer a happy place to work. I was relieved to escape.


    My general advice would be to try to go for redeployment if possible. If shifts/childcare are a problem, then mavbe not.


    Be careful not to turn down any "suitable alternative position" unreasonably. You could lose any redundancy entitlement.


    If you are not already in a union it is almost certain that it's too late to join now for this problem.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    The union will be assisting at these big meetings we are having next week, anything other than the hours Iím currently working will !!!!!! me up childcare wise unfortunately. This is the second round of us being culled only the last time in March just gone it was much easier as they just got rid of all zeros and some fixed term they too had little to no help or assistance in redeployment.

    It looks to me that itís inevitable there will be redundancy in some cases we have such a variety of people some are very much ready to go ( a fair few in late 60s)

    Itís gping to be a tough few months as far as I can see, people are already getting nasty. Iím not interested in the whole competing either I have a job or Iíll have a redundancy itís as simple as that I suppose
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 7th Nov 18, 5:14 PM
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    getmore4less
    Laying off people in their 60s can be expensive sometime better to keep them on and not replace when they leave anyway helps wind down the unit.

    If there is no support for redeployment this that want jobs need to be proactive in securing a position.
    • stickysituation
    • By stickysituation 7th Nov 18, 7:48 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    stickysituation
    The people in their 60s have actually already retired ...,then Come back, all of them so I shouldnít think they will be too bad to pay off
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