Cleats. Are they worth the stress?
Comments
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You can see from my posts that I have always thought that being locked into the pedals is quite suitable for professional cyclists, and club cyclists given the extreme effort they are imparting into the pedal action .It "proves" nothing. Indeed, if you care to read the research your link refers to, it does indicate that mechanical effectiveness is increased by incorporating the upstroke, but at a slight loss of mechanical efficiency. The other linked research suggests that inefficiency may be as a consequence of lack of familiarity with that method in the test cyclists.
Can you offer your view on why ALL these professionals use clipless pedals? Are they and their coaches all being conned?
Even a local club time trial I saw last month the cyclists were really giving it everything buzzing along at around 30 mph !
I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
I would think that at least 80% of cyclists I see around the country lanes I cycle round are just like me, leisure cyclists only, with an eye to keeping fit and it is this group I have suggested do not need or benefit whatsoever from cleats and locking into the pedals. .
like you, I feel "at one " with my bike all the time,sans cleats, clips special shoes. On my usual 20 miler yesterday evening my feet were planted firmly on the pedals throughout the pedal stroke and never moved around by one millimetre at any time as I poodled along at around 15 mph.
. I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles0 -
House_Martin wrote: »I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
No, you have brainwashed yourself into believing that. The simple physics state otherwise.
Put simply, we all have an upstroke, whether we use clipless or not. At its simplest passive level it means our downstroke power is not also having to push the weight of the upstroke leg against gravity. The inefficiency of that action can never be transferred as power assist to the downstroke unless you are clipped in. This alone is a good enough reason for pros and amateur racers and decent club riders to use clipless over flats.
But it offers more than that. It is a tool in the box that is not available to the unclipped rider, offering supporting wattage for power surges or fatigue relief on long steady inclines. Not just that, as soon as I got used to clipless, I was completely sold on them, they made my cycling feel much more efficient and more effective. These were only basic SPDs at the time which I was given from a mate, so I don't think you can argue I was conned into buying them.
The only reason not to have them is if you don't get on with them, or if you are constantly on and off the pedals. Even then, my short daily commute requires me to stop up to 10 times in about 4 miles. I use my lightly loaded speedplays on my CX for the commute, and they're excellent. Flats would be OK too, but I cba changing them over constantly.Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.0 -
House_Martin wrote: »I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles
And you think cotton is better than synthetic fibres, having ridden such distances?!
For what it's worth, I'm perfectly happy with flat pedals too. I like the fact that you can move your foot about, and ride in any shoes.
But there are obviously benefits to both systems, and most people who have actually tried clipless pedals seem to like them.
Why even care what someone else uses on their bike?0 -
House_Martin wrote: »You can see from my posts that I have always thought that being locked into the pedals is quite suitable for professional cyclists, and club cyclists given the extreme effort they are imparting into the pedal action .
Even a local club time trial I saw last month the cyclists were really giving it everything buzzing along at around 30 mph !
I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
I would think that at least 80% of cyclists I see around the country lanes I cycle round are just like me, leisure cyclists only, with an eye to keeping fit and it is this group I have suggested do not need or benefit whatsoever from cleats and locking into the pedals. .
like you, I feel "at one " with my bike all the time,sans cleats, clips special shoes. On my usual 20 miler yesterday evening my feet were planted firmly on the pedals throughout the pedal stroke and never moved around by one millimetre at any time as I poodled along at around 15 mph.
. I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles
And how much did you pay for those pedals and shoes out of interest?
You're also either missing the point being made about clipless or deliberately ignoring it by focusing all on power, clipless offers other significant gains for cyclists who use them - feet cannot move, better position for knee health etc. I frankly do not believe you have never had feet slip off pedals nor remain in optimal position in thousands of miles, it simply isn't possible because a flat pedal has no ability to keep your foot on the pedal if you hit a bump, basic physics proves your feet can come off the pedal0 -
Boys, boys, it's horses for courses innit?
I've never used clips and it would be overkill for my 3 mile trip to the shops or pub or football training or yesterday to some local fishing with fly rod and gear. I've a S/H man's bike from my neighbour, a Claude Butler Cotswold on which, with a bit of un-ladylike swearing I've replaced the chain and rear gubbins and put on Schwalbes . Bikes for me have always been handy transport with a bit of exercise thrown in .
I'd have to agree that for skiing, sailing, footie or anything with heavy sweating cotton is out.0 -
silverwhistle wrote: »Boys, boys, it's horses for courses innit?
I've never used clips and it would be overkill for my 3 mile trip to the shops or pub or football training or yesterday to some local fishing with fly rod and gear. I've a S/H man's bike from my neighbour, a Claude Butler Cotswold on which, with a bit of un-ladylike swearing I've replaced the chain and rear gubbins and put on Schwalbes . Bikes for me have always been handy transport with a bit of exercise thrown in .
I'd have to agree that for skiing, sailing, footie or anything with heavy sweating cotton is out.
It's personal preference yes though I use them on a 6 mile commute, the issue has gone off that into whether flats or cleats are better for different situations0 -
Seems like my little comment on whether or not cleats and locking oneself into the pedal has been a point of contention for years. My initial experience seems to be correct despite Brat and a few others having their opinions .
The best and most useful opinion on the subject come from Dr Jeff Broker who has dedicated a decade of research into the art of pedalling.He comments in this link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10840824/How-to-cycle-with-the-technique-of-a-pro.html
"Pulling up on the pedal does NOT increase maximal power output and in fact causes injury "
As for the foot bouncing around on the pedal on bumpy ground..utter rubbish.The roads nowadays are quite potholed and my 23 mm tyres have 110 lb of pressure in them and are as hard as concrete and certainly the bike bumps around a lot but my feet don`t budge one millimetre on either bumpy or smooth ground.They stay firmly on the flats and always have done.Must be gravity having a say in my feet maintaining close contact with my flats. I m beginning to think you don t have any experience of cycling and are just a wummer Nasqueron. Bikes don t launch themselves into the air on bumpy ground . .The tyres remain in contact with the ground and the frame absorbs the bumps with smaller vibrations transmitted into the handlebars which are well padded.
So that is the end of my discussion where the worlds expert on the subject , Dr Jeff Broker has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that wasting money on pedals that lock onto expensive shoes with built in cleats in order to pull on the upstroke is wrong . He has spent 10 years on his research and must know what he is talking about.
Cleats may be OK for people who are cycling hard and fast but I have seen the pros feet come out of the pedals and Mark Cavendish i think it was, come a real cropper on a sprint when his foot came out of the pedal and he crashed badly.
Just because that leisure cyclists have believed the spin and copied the pros it does n t mean anything except that they have been well and truly conned . They copy them like sheep donning wrap around sunglasses and wearing ludicrous lycra making themselves a laughing stock with their fat legs . That was Bradley wiggins who said that actually about fat people in lycra.
.Spin and conning and snake oil salesmen exist in every hobby.
Another hobby of mine is HiFi which is awash with con artists where they try and tell you that cables and connectors make a huge difference to the sound ...they don t ! HiFi is the worst of the lot for spin !
Pack your flawed technique in Brat, you re going to injure yourself in the long run.
None of the Pro s mess about yanking on the upstroke, they are just imparting more power on the downstroke in equal measures with both legs because they are incredibly fit compared to you.
Concentrate on building more power in the big muscles used only on the downstroke and follow the good advice of Dr Jeff Broker0 -
House_Martin wrote: »Seems like my little comment on whether or not cleats and locking oneself into the pedal has been a point of contention for years. My initial experience seems to be correct despite Brat and a few others having their opinions .
The best and most useful opinion on the subject come from Dr Jeff Broker who has dedicated a decade of research into the art of pedalling.He comments in this link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10840824/How-to-cycle-with-the-technique-of-a-pro.html
"Pulling up on the pedal does NOT increase maximal power output and in fact causes injury "
As for the foot bouncing around on the pedal on bumpy ground..utter rubbish. My feet don`t budge one millimetre on either bumpy or smooth ground.They stay put ! and always have done.
So that is the end of my discussion where the worlds expert on the subject Dr Jeff Broker has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that wasting money on pedals that lock onto expensive shoes with built in cleats is a total waste of money.
Just because that leisure cyclists have believed the spin and copied the pros it does n t mean anything except that they have been well and truly conned .Spin and conning and snake oil salesmen exist in every hobby.
Another hobby of mine is HiFi which is awash with con artists where they try and tell you that cables and connectors make a huge difference to the sound ...they don t !
Pack your flawed technique in Brat, you re going to injure yourself in the long run.None of the Pro s mess about yanking on the upstroke, they are just imparting more power on the downstroke in equal measures with both legs because they are incredibly fit compared to you
So in essence, you happily admit to confirmation bias, which is to say, you found a newspaper article that says what you want it to say, that is your proof and you have no interest in reading peer reviewed journal articles that contradict you.
I find it amusing you are apparently an authority to determine who is the leading expert in a field studied by hundreds of people around the world. Or rather, again confirmation bias, a scientist who says what you want to hear MUST be that leading authority.
Moreover, you continue this myth that clipless pedals and shoes are expensive whereas you can get the pedal for £20 and shoes from £27.99! I wonder how much your pedals and shoes cost
The best part is the fact you deny basic physics, when you hit a bump and go up, your foot and body go up, unless you're using some sort of anti-gravity shoes lol.
Edit
Even better, reading the article, it says precisely NOTHING that supports your claim that clipless are bad or a waste of money, simply that one guy thinks a pull up effect doesn't work!
Genius, you don't even read your own source beyond finding a bit that supports what you want to believe0 -
We seem to be debating a petulant child.
Since jumping in on this debate I have ridden 140 miles in the last three days, and I've been thinking about my upstroke, and when and how I use it. The Broker science shows that accommodating the upstroke as part of regular riding is inefficient. This is disputed by very reputable training programmes such as TrainerRoad who passionately believe in not only the upstroke, but a 360 degree power input. https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201894264-Drills-Efficiency-Strength-Power. FWIW, I'm not a fan of developing a 360 degree technique, I agree with Broker that it is inefficient, but different people with different training methods, weight, size, leg length etc may disagree.
I climbed Shap on Wednesday, and I naturally discovered that on the steady 7% parts of the climb I used upstroke to allow a little extra recovery time for my downstroke muscles. I also used it more when out of the saddle pushing high wattage, perhaps to crest a small hill without dropping a gear.
I do enjoy watching the GCN videos. They have aired their view on the clipless pedal debate taken out of Broker's lab and put into the real world. They're pretty sure of the overall benefits of clipless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY
Upstroke (just one part of the benefits of clipless) is in essence useful as a short turbo boost. But their other benefits are indisputable for those who enjoy them. For hobby/training/ leisure rides I personally can see absolutely no reason not to use clipless. Yes, I paid over £350 for my shoe/pedal combo, but I'm sad, and, for me, appearance matters!. My first combo were £60 for shoes and pedals, so cost is not an issue.
As with everything in life and hobbies, it's down to personal preference. House Martin, you don't communicate in a way that I would be tempted to take counsel from, so your tantrummy point of view is ignored.Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.0 -
I can do without the insults brat , where are my tantrums and petulence ? you are losing your argument resorting to insults .. Maybe you being a Police Officer has given you an attitude that you do not like to be questioned in what you say . I hope you don t go around with that attitude on the streets of the UK on a Saturday night , the drunks won t like itWe seem to be debating a petulant child.
Since jumping in on this debate I have ridden 140 miles in the last three days, and I've been thinking about my upstroke, and when and how I use it. The Broker science shows that accommodating the upstroke as part of regular riding is inefficient. This is disputed by very reputable training programmes such as TrainerRoad who passionately believe in not only the upstroke, but a 360 degree power input. https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201894264-Drills-Efficiency-Strength-Power. FWIW, I'm not a fan of developing a 360 degree technique, I agree with Broker that it is inefficient, but different people with different training methods, weight, size, leg length etc may disagree.
I climbed Shap on Wednesday, and I naturally discovered that on the steady 7% parts of the climb I used upstroke to allow a little extra recovery time for my downstroke muscles. I also used it more when out of the saddle pushing high wattage, perhaps to crest a small hill without dropping a gear.
I do enjoy watching the GCN videos. They have aired their view on the clipless pedal debate taken out of Broker's lab and put into the real world. They're pretty sure of the overall benefits of clipless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY
Upstroke (just one part of the benefits of clipless) is in essence useful as a short turbo boost. But their other benefits are indisputable for those who enjoy them. For hobby/training/ leisure rides I personally can see absolutely no reason not to use clipless. Yes, I paid over £350 for my shoe/pedal combo, but I'm sad, and, for me, appearance matters!. My first combo were £60 for shoes and pedals, so cost is not an issue.
As with everything in life and hobbies, it's down to personal preference. House Martin, you don't communicate in a way that I would be tempted to take counsel from, so your tantrummy point of view is ignored.0
This discussion has been closed.
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