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  • FIRST POST
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    • 64,896Posts
    • 77,478Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou!
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou! 10th Nov 13 at 5:35 PM
    WELCOME!

    HOW TO BEAT A PRIVATE PCN: BY APPEAL, COMPLAINT, OR DEFENCE.


    PLEASE ONLY START A NEW THREAD IF YOUR QUESTION IS NOT ANSWERED HERE, OR IN OTHER THREADS YOU SEARCH FOR AND FIND FIRST, OR IF THE STAGE YOU ARE AT IS COMPLICATED (e.g. COURT CLAIM STAGE, DO POST AND SHOW US YOUR DRAFT DEFENCE, BUT READ POST #2 BELOW, FIRST).

    OR AT POPLA STAGE, DO SHOW US YOUR APPEAL DRAFT (BUT DO READ POST #3 BELOW, FIRST).


    BEFORE YOU USE THE FORUM, IF YOU ARE NOT SURE HOW TO USE IT, CLICK HERE Forum Introduction Guide

    AND READ THESE; YOU'LL SOON BE UP TO SPEED AND MAY FIND YOUR ANSWER BY SEARCHING FOR SIMILAR POSTS:

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/faqs/how-do-i-ask-a-question-on-the-forum/

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage


    DO NOT USE YOUR OWN REAL NAME AS YOUR USERNAME!! TAKE HEED - READ THIS HELPFUL POST FROM CATFUNT:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5532696


    PLEASE FIRSTLY READ OTHER THREADS LIKE YOURS, EITHER ON THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF THIS FORUM, OR BY SEARCHING FOR THE PARKING FIRM'S NAME.

    THIS FORUM IS VERY BUSY SO WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE HELP FOR THOSE WHO ARE AT A STAGE THAT NEEDS ASSISTANCE (NOT 'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE! WE FIND THAT MOST POSTERS DO NOT NEED SPECIFIC HELP AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE.






    FAQS FIRST. NO THREAD IS NEEDED IF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE:


    Q - ''My PCN is from a Council (e.g. bus lane, box junction or parking PENALTY) so does this thread apply?''

    A - NO, BUT THEY CAN BE APPEALED. GO TO 'PEPIPOO.COM' COUNCIL TICKETS FORUM INSTEAD.
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30


    Q - ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

    A - NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS. FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.



    Q - ''Is this info up to date, because this thread was started in 2013?''

    A - YES, IT IS. SEE THE DATE LAST EDITED IN 2018 AS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST.



    Q -''Where else can I go for free advice, how about Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB)?''

    A - THE CAB (SADLY) INVARIABLY GIVE TERRIBLE ADVICE ABOUT THESE CHARGES (HAVE EVEN DONE SO OFFICIALLY ON THIS FORUM), SO AVOID!


    Q - ''I don't understand any of your acronyms, this is too complicated!''

    A - THE USUAL ACRONYMS ARE EXPLAINED LOWER DOWN THIS THREAD, SEPARATELY, IN POST #5. APPEALING IS NOT COMPLICATED, YOUR APPEAL IS ALREADY WRITTEN FOR YOU BELOW FOR YOU TO COPY & PASTE INTO THE PPC's ONLINE APPEAL PAGE.

    AS THE FORUM IS TOO BUSY, PLEASE DON'T COPY THE TEMPLATE INTO A NEW THREAD AND ASK 'DO I SUBMIT THIS?' YES...!



    Q -''I got a windscreen PCN, I've checked the BPA & IPC lists of AOS members but can't find the company''

    A - IF YOU ARE UNSURE, START A THREAD TO DOUBLE CHECK THE COMPANY NAME, BUT IF A PARKING FIRM IS NOT IN EITHER THE BPA OR IPC 'APPROVED OPERATOR' SCHEMES, OR ARE SHOWING AS CURRENTLY BANNED, DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL. THEY CANNOT GET YOUR ADDRESS AND YOU WILL NEVER HEAR ANY MORE!



    Q - ''My PCN says the 'fine' will go up after 14 days, so why are you suggesting I wait before appealing?''

    A - FORGET THE '14 DAYS JITTERS'. THE SO-CALLED 'DISCOUNT' IS A BRIBE NOT TO APPEAL - YOU CANNOT DO BOTH - BUT WE ACHIEVE 100% DISCOUNT IN ALMOST EVERY CASE.



    Q - ''My PCN is from an IPC member, should I really not try IAS, and why not?''

    A - If it's PCM then give it a go as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes, but otherwise, no chance unless you have something ground-shattering like proof there are NO signs up, or if they've said you were the driver/keeper and you are neither (e.g. if you are a non-driving resident and appealed instead of a family member keeper/driver, then it can be fun to expose the PPC to that fact at IAS, proving you can't drive!). Normal appeal facts like 'I was not the driver, no keeper liability' don't cut it with the IAS which is deemed to be a kangaroo court, and losing that stage will make most posters feel worse, and more worried. SO DON'T!



    Q - ''My PCN is from UKCPM, or UKCPS, or Millennium (etc.) and it/the signs say they are both BPA & IPC members?''

    A - NO, THEY ARE NOT, AND PLEASE NO MORE THREADS ASKING THIS!
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5784929




    Q - ''My windscreen notice says it's 'NOT A PCN' from 'myparkingcharge.co.uk' so is it a PCN?''

    A - YES AND NO! THIS IS DISCUSSED ON OTHER THREADS - SEARCH THE FORUM FOR 'myparkingcharge.co.uk'




    Q - ''My windscreen Notice is a 'PENALTY' from a Railway car park, issued by a private firm (Indigo), what do I do?''

    The only thing to do differently with an INDIGO RAILWAY PENALTY (specifically only that type) is to WAIT for the first letter to arrive (as long as it's your own vehicle, not leased/hired) and do not rush to appeal on day 26 like with any other 'parking charge notice'. The reason is, these fake penalties go nowhere, and 'time out' after just 6 months. So at every stage, drag it out, and wait for the first letter before using the template appeal below. Then at POPLA stage - which is now available again for fake 'byelaws Penalties' like this one, don't rush. POPLA codes last 32 days, so appeal as late as possible and get to the six months and/or win at POPLA earlier by copying another byelaws POPLA appeal (search the forum).

    For a summary about Indigo Railway penalties, written by a newbie who did her research (BUT THIS WAS BEFORE POPLA WAS ALLOWED AGAIN FOR THESE CASES) click here.



    Q - ''My vehicle is lease/hired/company car and I'm not the registered keeper. Is the advice different?''

    A - YES, PLEASE SEE THE SECTION ABOUT LEASE/HIRE/COMPANY CARS AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST*



    Q - ''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''

    A - IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NI, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, BUT DO NOT APPEAL, UNLESS YOUR CAR IS A COMPANY/HIRE/LEASED VEHICLE, IN WHICH CASE, APPEAL AS HIRER/LESSEE (SEE * AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST).

    IN SCOTLAND/NI, CERTAINLY COMPLAIN TO THE RETAILERS, BUT IGNORE THE PARKING FIRM UNLESS YOU GET A CLAIM.

    IN SCOTLAND THIS IS EXCEEDINGLY RARE, AND DEFENDABLE BY A KEEPER, WHO CURRENTLY HAS A FAR MORE PROTECTED POSITION IN LAW THAN AN ADMITTED DRIVER.

    WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI, KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY, FOR 5 YEARS.




    Q - ''I am getting debt collector letters! They're really scary, the 'fine' has gone up, what do I do?''

    A - NOTHING! Unless this is the VERY FIRST letter (England/Wales) in which case, appeal as if it was the 'Notice to Keeper'. DO NOT RING THE DEBT COLLECTOR - DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!
    See post #4 below, please NO NEW THREADS RE 'IGNORING THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE.



    Q - ''I have a (non-debt collector) Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC), or a Court Claim, or a CCJ that I have just discovered - is it too late to beat this - should I now pay?''

    A - IT IS NOT TOO LATE. WE WIN 99% OF WELL-DEFENDED COURT CLAIMS! CERTAINLY DON'T RUSH TO PAY OFF A CCJ, WHICH OFTEN DOES NOT REMOVE IT. THESE CAN BE BEATEN. SEE POST #2.



    ALL CASES - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL, HOTEL, OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:

    Always complain to the Retailer very quickly and assertively, WITH A RECEIPT IF POSSIBLE:

    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK

    See how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner. VERY EFFECTIVE AND DAMAGES THE PPC!


    ALSO PLEASE COMPLAIN TO YOUR MP AND TO TRADING STANDARDS; AS SUGGESTED BY 'THE DEEP':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787877


    Q - ''Why isn't this sort of rip-off scam illegal? I thought these were unenforceable.''

    A - Private charges are based on contract law and allege either that the driver breached a contractual term (e.g. a promise not to overstay a 2 hour free period) or accepted an offer to park for a large fee (e.g. 'by parking here without a permit, you agree to pay 100 per day'). Such contracts can be enforceable in the county court, but are defendable (see post #2 all about small claim defences).

    Charges are not 'illegal' but this cowboy industry is skating on thin ice in 2018. These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.


    ****************************




    Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)


    Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!

    If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal, and not an Indigo Railway 'penalty' - see Q&A above) wait 3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is an AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE & CHECK THEIR LISTS).

    In the case of CURRENT (NON-DVLA-BANNED) BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the ''one size fits all'' blue appeal template below.


    Q - ''But I want to appeal now! Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member windscreen PCN?''

    A - To tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NTK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NTK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA! Don't forget this tactic, and use it at POPLA stage: having appealed on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NTK'. You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time, and you will win.



    IPC members are different:

    In the case of CURRENT IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once online or by email, as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal for IPC members, as shown below.

    Q -''Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?''

    A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread). Also, letting an IPC member get the data from the DVLA places obligations upon the PPC in the processing of that data which can have data protection implications for them if they misuse it (for example if they try to 'sell' the parking charge to a third party like MIL Collections).



    Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket):

    A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a letter from a debt collector - it is your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it's the first letter to arrive. No need to wait, if the event was in England/Wales, appeal online as registered keeper (or as ''hirer/lessee'' if that's the case, see * below re lease/hire cars).



    ************************************************** ******



    TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING

    - if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled.

    - this is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180




    ************************************************** **********************



    Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box::




    Re PCN number:

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

    - If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

    - If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

    - in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

    Formal note:
    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

    Yours faithfully,



    THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE.

    THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.


    DO NOT PUT YOUR NAME HERE INSTEAD, IF YOU ARE NOT THE KEEPER/HIRER/LESSEE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING IF YOU DO THIS WRONG BY APPEALING IN THE WRONG NAME!



    DON'T POST IT BY ROYAL MAIL UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION ON THE PCN. CERTAINLY NOT BY RECORDED DELIVERY - FORGET THAT! - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE - OR EMAIL IF OFFERED AS AN OPTION ON THE NOTICE - BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP PROOF/ A SCREENSHOT. NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER APPEAL OPTION BUT POSTAL...BUT OF COURSE YOU PUT YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS!

    You can (carefully!) add a little to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...':

    - the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.

    - If an occupant of the car is disabled or elderly/infirm, then the keeper can add that, without implying who was driving. A copy of the Blue Badge (BB) is a good idea to upload/attach, but a person with a long-term debilitating condition (not a broken arm!) can be disabled without a BB, and will be legally entitled to a 'reasonable adjustment'. That can and should include an extension of time, over and above free or paid-for parking time.



    ************************************************** ******

    Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a 'windscreen ticket followed by a NTK', or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN only):

    [/FONT]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    If the NTK arrives late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket.

    Or, the NTK must arrive with you between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen PCN.

    Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA.




    ************************************************** ***************************


    * COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

    In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

    You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.

    If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).

    Here are some examples of a successful first appeal. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer (you) with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5703794

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


    Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal for when it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent out, after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'! So stay schtum about who was driving!

    Here is Edna Basher's latest 2018 draft appeal for a Fleet Manager (hirer company) to use:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5881338

    Worked the same day!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-11-2018 at 3:53 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    SMALL CLAIM? START A THREAD PLEASE (UNLESS YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE ABOUT THE SAME PCN) BUT PLEASE ONLY AFTER READING THIS SECTION AND DOING THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF SERVICE FIRST.

    IF YOU HAVE AN OLD THREAD, PLEASE REPLY ON IT, DON'T START ANOTHER ONE.

    In 2017, there were 5.4mn private parking tickets issued. In the same period there were some 8,000 court hearings with many, many claims being thrown out well before the court hearing stage. So you have well under a 1% chance of getting a court claim and even less likely to go to court.

    If you have a Letter Before Claim (LBC, sometimes referred to on forums as a LBCCC), a claim IS likely. So you must respond.

    This is a chance to see the parking firm's hand - to send them (NOT their solicitor, if they are using one) a Subject Access Request 'SAR' listing what you want to see by way of data they hold about you:

    https://legalbeagles.info/library/guides_and_letters/court/subject-access-request/

    You can find out where to send the SAR (usually by email) by looking on the Parking firm's PRIVACY webpage, telling you where to send a SAR or any 'data concerns' to their Data Protection Officer. You should NOT have to supply intrusive ID like your driving licence or Passport, that's excessive - and if they are sending a LBC then they already hold sufficient data to ID you!

    A SAR is free. Ask for (as a minimum):

    - ALL photos taken
    - a close up of the signs on the day in question
    - evidence that they have paid a debt collector, if they are trying to add 60 per PCN (they can't do that but will if YOU let them)
    - all letters/emails sent and received, including any appeal correspondence earlier
    - if the car park was Pay and Display, ALWAYS ALWAYS ask for a PDT machine record from that day, of payments made (VRNs can be partially redacted but insist on getting this and follow it up if they refuse). You want the PDT machine record if it;s an PDT machine car park.
    - all data held, all evidence they will rely on, and a full copy of the PCN, NTK
    - and a list of all PCNs they consider are outstanding against you and/or this VRN, and remind them that any claim must be for all PCNs in one claim, not several separate claims.

    DO RESPOND - but DO NOT phone them, DO NOT use a template, and DO NOT use the 'reply forms'.

    As well as the SAR to the parking firm's Data Protection Officer (DPO), also write a letter - it can be sent by email to Gladstones or BW Legal or directly to whoever the PPC is, if they are not using a solicitor. Your letter can state that you have sent their client a SAR and so you require a restriction of data processing and the case should be put 'on hold'. Confirm your correct 'address for service' (especially if you've moved and they've traced you & might revert back to an old address). This is an EASY formal letter to write - it will not stop most claims but it looks better to respond.

    The exception is PARKINGEYE.
    If you get a LBCCC from ParkingEye, do send a SAR using the form on their PRIVACY page if you feel you are missing evidence (such as the VRN list from any PDT machine, and a copy of the sign) but also email their litigation team if there is anything else you wish to say that could stop the claim:

    enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

    Do that email as well as the SAR, treat it as a last gasp chance to appeal, because ParkingEye can and will sometimes stop the case and revert to appeal stage, or they will accept you naming the driver & postal address (and will reissue the PCN and start again with the driver being allowed to appeal). Or send them relevant things you really shoud have sent earlier as an appeal - such as a copy of the Blue Badge of an occupant of the car, or a shopping receipt if over 30. They WILL sometimes then cancel the PCN.

    Oh, and it is always a VERY good idea to complain to the Landowner or retailer, and LBC stage is your chance. When faced with
    a polite but ''angry customer who will never return'' complaint, Landowners/retailers cancel these, very often, at commercial car park sites (less common with residential sites, but they are beatable in court anyway in most cases).

    If it's a Hospital, complain to PALS (Google it...).


    What if your LBC-stage complaint to the landowner does not get the PCN cancelled?

    You will probably get a court claim anyway, so be ready. That's where we win! And the results of the SAR will help you, as it shows you their evidence nice and early and makes it easier to defend, in many ways, as you are not in the dark.

    If you get court claim, do not panic, we assist people & some 99% of cases here, win!

    ALMOST NO-ONE REPORTS A LOSS - YOU DON'T NEED TO WASTE MONEY ON A SOLICITOR OR ANY COMPANY - WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE HAVE A HIGHER SUCCESS RATE THAN ANYWHERE, AND WE HELP FOR FREE.

    So, where to start dealing with your claim?

    DO NOT START SCRAWLING A HALF-BAKED 'DEFENCE' ON THE PAPERWORK. STOP!


    Here is a guide to MCOL & how to acknowledge service (the first step), put together by a genuine PPC fighter:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0


    Urgently start your own thread - ONLY if you have no thread yet - if you do, please 'reply' with a court claim update on your existing thread if you already have an old one - and show us your own tailored draft defence and we'll assist on a case by case basis.

    You do not get a CCJ even if you lose; as long as you pay within 30 days of judgment it's all sorted and nothing stays on the register (i.e. your credit record). No 'risk' as long as you don't miss court deadlines, you may as well defend and fight.

    You will likely pay less than is being demanded even if you lose, all over with no effect on your credit rating - you will have cost THEM more.

    Here are some cases won or in progress:

    Here is a defence I suggested for a case where a RingGo app carried forward a default VRN for the wrong car, so that the driver was not at fault and the inaccuracy came from the PPC's app:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74836178#post74836178


    Here is a defence from 2017, a Gladstones farce about the failure of a Pay by Phone app:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5659621


    A defence by bargepole, showing that a defence about unclear signs should be written concisely:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74674865&postcount=24

    and even more concisely here, about poorly marked lines and unclear signs about where to park:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74833078#post74833078



    A 2018 defence re VCS and a 'THIS IS NOT A PARKING CHARGE' which they then call a parking charge later:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74816302#post74816302



    A 2018 defence where ParkingEye use ANPR alongside a Pay & Display machine, then try to morph the 4 tariff into 100 damages (which is nothing like how the Beavis case was pleaded):

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74850073#post74850073


    Another ParkingEye defence, where there was a hidden iPad or keypad inside the Odeon, that no-one drew to the driver's attention:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74254129#post74254129



    A BW Legal PPS claim, where the D is being pursued for a small tariff from 2014 that isn't owed:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74860972#post74860972



    UKCPM using Gladstones, a case won on pepipoo as usual, this at Leeds due to lack of particulars and the Judge ''ripped the legal rep a new one'' while the Defendant sat & relaxed sipping water:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113569



    A defence about a car which was authorised by an employer to be unloading in a gated business complex:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71643736#post71643736



    Here is a defence written for a COMPANY DEFENDANT (cannot have been driving, POFA not followed by PPM):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=98803 - post #80



    And one written re 'no permit' allegation from Pace Recovery, T/A Ace Security Services, Gladstones case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5485681 - post #159




    If your case is about YOUR OWN SPACE or parking in a residents' car park as a legit visitor, please read THIS from the parking Prankster and also consider doing a counter-claim and/or Letter before Action to the site Managing Agent:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/residential-ticket-only-cancelled-after.html

    Here is a defence for an 'own space' residential site, by Johnersh who is legally qualified:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72977032#post72977032

    and one written by me but based on a template by bargepole (legally qualified), about a residential space (this one has a point about the site being secured by key fob):

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74708527#post74708527


    and one I wrote in a similar style with clear headings & sections, about an ''undesignated bay'' allegation in a block of flats:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107768&st=80&p=1311428!!!entry 1311428

    Here is one of many residential cases won. This report by bargepole mentions the case transcripts that might help (find them hosted by the Parking Prankster in his CASE LAW pages on his Blog website):

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5927351

    IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

    Here is a walk-through the process from defence onwards (i.e. AFTER acknowledgement of service) by Loadsofchildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72244727#post72244727

    Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

    Here is his advice about how to set out your defence, which bargepole recommends is best posted:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71228944#post71228944

    Irrelevant Defences and How To Avoid Them - what NOT to argue (DO NOT ARGUE ''NO LOSS' OR 'EXTORTIONATE CHARGE'):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5555458

    Do not think putting in the defence is your only job. Directions Questionnaire must be completed and returned to the claimant and the court, explained by IamEmanresu:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71763411#post71763411



    Once allocated to your local court, PLEASE DO NOT NOTE THE HEARING DATE AND FAIL TO ACTUALLY READ THE LETTER!

    You WILL be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence ('exhibits') and any Witness Statement (i.e. yours, as bargepole says in the above link!). At witness statement stage (usually NOT LATER THAN 14 DAYS BEFORE YOUR HEARING!) don't forget to file the evidence you will rely upon, which should at least include:

    (a) a copy of the Beavis case sign as a comparison to show how awful the small print sign was in yours case
    (b) photos proving the scarce and illegible small print signs in your case, a view showing the lack of entrance signs, etc.
    (c) a video of how it looks from a car is good evidence! You can get a passenger to hold a camera or phone and record the lack of signs seen.
    (d) a copy of Schedule 4 of the POFA - there is a link to it in post #1 above. The Judge will NOT have this to hand & is unlikely to be familiar with it. This is only applicable if you are defending as keeper.
    (e) a copy of Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' if defending as keeper.
    (f) a copy of your lease or tenancy agreement if this is an 'own space' or 'block of flats' dispute where YOU have primacy of contract.
    (g) the case transcripts that support your argument (get them from the Parking Prankster's case law page), e.g. if arguing prohibitive 'forbidding parking' signs which offer no contract a driver can accept, you need PCM v Bull; if arguing that this is a residential space where the tenant/leaseholder has already been granted (impliedly or explicitly) the right to park or unload you need Jopson v Home Guard (a persuasive Appeal case heard by a Senior Circuit Judge) and PACE v Mr N, etc.
    (h) the IPC or BPA Code of practice, where it supports your case (e.g. the grace periods section 13 of the CoP in a BPA few minutes' 'overstay' claim).
    (i) a Pay & Display ticket if you have it in such a case, e.g. if arguing it was displayed. DO NOT ARGUE 'no loss'!

    If Gladstones write before the hearing, offering you a chance to 'settle' it usually means they know they will lose and are about to discontinue the case (in which case you are entitled to seek YOUR costs!). Here's a reply to Gladstones, 10 days before a hearing, by LOC123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73000370#post73000370

    and if a firm does discontinue (e.g. CEL often do, rather than attend a hearing) then write & claim your costs!

    Here's how Bluetoffee1878 did it:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...88#post72966188

    and LoadsofChildren123 wrote a longer version that she links here, to reclaim costs after a discontinuance:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...88#post72799488


    Court reports - what it is like when you turn up and win!

    We've seen loads in 2018, here's one where the poster used their wife as a LAY REP to speak for him:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74770314#post74770314

    Claxtome won in late 2017, yet another Gladstones mess of a case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73254200#post73254200

    Here's a 'court report' from 2017 from a winner on pepipoo (both forums have lots of such victories):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110606&st=40&gopid=1296619!!!e ntry1296619


    WITNESS STATEMENT EXAMPLES - AN EASY STAGE - YOUR 'STORY' AND EVIDENCE

    A WS is simple, it expands on your defence and tells the story from your point of view, and it is vital because it includes your evidence exhibits such as photos of obscured/tiny font signs, any relevant letters, permit/copy of your lease, copy of your authority to park, etc.

    Here's a WS example by legally-qualified regular poster, bargepole, in 2018:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74584727#post74584727

    And another 2018 WS with an introduction suggested by solicitor, LoadsofChildren123:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74718760#post74718760

    Here is a thread with a WS & a summary of his day in court. AB Express won v VCS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5070951&page=4

    Here is a witness statement written from a registered keeper who was not driving and you can see it is paragraph-numbered throughout and it references numbered exhibits, creating an organised argument with illustrations/evidence:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106959&st=40&p=1225247!!!entry 1 225247

    Here is a court report from MA61 about beating a Gladstones case (NB: we have 99% win rate here and on that day, 31.5.17, posters won 4 out of 4 cases):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5657908

    here is MA61's prep (the other 3 cases won that day were by 'stephthechosenone', Jack Basta and Jinxycat, so read them too):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5650032

    and here is a Witness Statement which saw off BW Legal, in a case about a tiny alleged 10p 'owed' because the machine swallowed it:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72186852#post72186852

    Here is a Witness Statement I wrote for a person post #5 (a case about a keypad error re the VRN, remember that if this is a 'close match' VRN, it is not proved to be the fault of the driver and could always be a dodgy key on the equipment):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636211

    Here in post #9 is IamEmanresu from here (posting as emanresu on pepipoo) explaining witness statements and skeleton arguments:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106957&st=0&p=1239147!!!entry1 2 39147

    Here is a case where I separated the 2 documents into Witness Statement (the facts about letters received, etc.) and the skeleton (legal argument):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72047642#post72047642

    Skeleton Arguments explained:

    https://www.biicl.org/files/2223_skeleton_arguments_guide.pdf

    ''STRUCTURE AND CONTENT
    19. Heading !!!8211; !!!8220;Skeleton argument on behalf of......." Three vital words which are
    often omitted. It is rather important for the court to know whose skeleton it is,
    and it is not always immediately apparent from the text.''



    Here is a humdinger of a skeleton argument, with case law but all relevant, for a residential 'own space' case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5591251&page=5

    Here is a very nicely set out (if long!) skeleton argument including case law, re a short stop (no offer of parking) in a BW Legal case where the registered keeper defendant was not the driver, and VCS did not use the POFA so 'no liability' and 'no contract':

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojb2w37vx7hhegm/VCS-v-Quayle_Defendant-Skeleton-Argument%28rev%29.pdf?dl=0

    Here is a costs schedule, you take this to the hearing and claim your costs for lost wages/leave, your travel, parking(!) etc. if you win:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72079752#post72079752

    You CAN claim loss of leave but some Judges do not know this, so have this up your sleeve in your notes in your 'costs schedule': ''27.14.2(e) a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for any loss of earnings or loss of leave by a party or witness due to attending a hearing or to staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing''

    If you have such a strong case that the Claim was VEXATIOUS, unreasonable and without merit, see this about claiming punitive costs, written by legally-qualified LoadsofChildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72639343#post72639343

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73593864#post73593864



    HAVE YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT A CCJ (JUDGMENT FOR CLAIMANT) AND NEED IT SET ASIDE?

    Here's how - DO NOT ring the parking firm up...and do not just pay them:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5581374

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585047

    And read this thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5619965

    ...which includes the OP's statement in support of his/her set aside, and an outcome which included the 255 being refunded. They were in and out in 5 minutes and he/she just asked for the 255 to be reimbursed by the non-attending claimant (quite often they don't attend).

    And the Judge agreed, all over, claim struck out entirely!

    IamEmanresu's summary of your choices regarding a SET ASIDE:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71776504#post71776504

    Here is a case which shows what you have to do, in order to satisfy the points the Judge will be wanting to hear:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74864199#post74864199

    Usually the PPC does not turn up to a set aside hearing, but you must be well prepared and know what the Judge wants to hear, and also do ask for your COSTS (including your 255 fee if you do not qualify for help with court fees*) to be paid by the Claimant or at least 'reserved' pending the claim the continuing - and if the Claimant defaults on the court process, or discontinues (very common after a set aside) you want your costs paid! So make sure the Judge knows this is likely and to protect your costs by Ordering the dates by which the Claimant can continue the claim - but that they must pay your set aside hearing costs, in the event of a discontinuance.

    * It's a NO-BRAINER to get a CCJ set aside if you qualify for free court fees, and lost of people do! (low income):

    https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-help-with-court-and-tribunal-fees
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-11-2018 at 9:58 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    SECOND STAGE APPEAL - POPLA OR IAS



    POPLA IS OFFERED BY BPA AOS FIRMS

    DO NOT APPEAL SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING, NEITHER AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE NOR AT POPLA.

    POPLA Appeals are submitted here:

    http://www.popla.co.uk/

    but don't feel you have to answer their questions, you should write a detailed appeal and attach it as a PDF along with photos (use the parking firm's own photo of the sign if the words are illegible and the 100 (or whatever) charge is not in LARGE letters.

    To find a relevant POPLA appeal written recently, always search the forum well, choosing good keywords.

    So if yours is an APCOA PCN at an Airport, search the forum for the words 'APCOA POPLA Airport' and you will find a good one like this, in seconds, that you can copy and adapt (these are deliberately long, to make a PPC give up):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71489034#post71489034

    And in the same vein, to find a UKPC POPLA appeal where no NTK was ever served to the keeper, a search finds this:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71383972#post71383972

    And here is a perfect, illustrated appeal which won when arguing about BPA Grace Periods:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73797736#post73797736

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/p7ltb9rcr6zy7kn/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft5.pdf?dl=0

    THAT IS WHAT A WINNING POPLA APPEAL CAN LOOK LIKE, VERY LONG AND WITH IMAGES.


    Another one, 26 pages long, with pictures - this won, Smart Parking gave up:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v_W_UseWdI_d_9WWMUfVecx0uDUYOwKs/view


    ParkingEye (make sure you search it as ONE word as shown) can be best handled by searching for the relevant place as a keyword, so 'ParkingEye POPLA Aire Street' or 'ParkingEye Tower Road POPLA' or 'ParkingEye POPLA Hospital' would be good choices of keywords to find very recent examples.

    ALWAYS look at the wording of any PCN from ParkingEye to see if it is a 'POFA/keeper liability after 29 days' one or not. There are two versions - look on the BACK of your PCN!


    As long as you have not said who was driving in the first appeal, if you are lucky enough to have one like the ''golden ticket'' (nothing about POFA 2012 on the back) type of PCN discussed here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5684787

    This shows a ''Golden Ticket'' (our phrase only!) back page (note no paragraph about the POFA 2012):

    http://i.imgur.com/ubQAZ8p.jpg

    ...then you *will* win your appeal using the template POPLA point about 'no keeper liability' from a PE non-POFA type PCN, followed by the template point about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable.

    Here is a POPLA appeal you can copy & adapt, ONLY if you have a ParkingEye 'Golden Ticket':

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74575725#post74575725

    This person (below) was not lucky enough to have the 'non-POFA' easily-winning version PE PCN but still won with this PE POPLA appeal so it is certainly possible and PE do not like the very long 'throw the kitchen sink at it' approach to POPLA appeals and often give up:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71563041#post71563041

    I have only shown a few links as examples of POPLA appeals because they change and evolve. Searching will find the most recent similar example; do not use one older than 2017. Do not look at old ones about 'no GPEOL' or no loss because that's not going to win.

    Easier than it sounds because we now have a number of POPLA appeal points covering the essential areas for appeal. They are in 'near template' state, but will need to be checked first against the circumstances of your parking event.

    These are long on detail and when put together form a formidable block of text, deliberately so to scare off some PPCs who cannot be bothered to contest (fairly common).

    Signage (I deliberately go to town in this section, don't cut it down!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341

    - The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287626&postcount=2342

    Landowner Authority

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343

    No Keeper Liability (windscreen ticket, no follow on NtK)

    Example for cases where the PPC issued only a windscreen PCN but did not follow it with a NTK:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287643&postcount=2345

    Permit car parks (residential 'own space' appeals, or industrial/employer car parks where the car was permitted):

    And two appeal points to use together (as well as some of the above, of course) for PERMIT car parks where you were loading/unloading or permitted to be there:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71339517&postcount=2361

    You can copy them verbatim and put them together and show us, to check nothing is missed. Like these two posters did, one is v Civil Enforcement and one v ParkingEye:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5698328

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5538581

    A ParkingEye appeal is 100% winnable with that style PCN as long as you do NOT shoot yourself in the foot first by saying who was driving.

    Here are two POPLA appeals I wrote (specific to a ParkingEye car park/machine issue and PCN):

    Duncan Nimock's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/lukk13xep4s6ckz/Appeal%20v%20ParkingEye%20-%20POPLA%20November%202016.docx?dl=0

    marganne's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzau2e68ddbniow/ParkingEye%20Aire%20St%20POPLA%20appeal.docx?dl=0


    These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/new-popla-process.html


    ****************************


    AFTER SUBMITTING YOUR POPLA APPEAL:

    If the PPC contests the POPLA appeal, they will put on the Portal (and maybe also send to you) their POPLA evidence pack. It is NOT from POPLA not the decision!

    This is your chance to comment on the crappy evidence from the scumbags.

    YOU REALLY MUST COMMENT, BUT KEEP IT VERY CONCISE TO FIT COMMENTS IN THE PORTAL.

    How can I comment on the evidence sent to POPLA, they've written a lot and shown lots of pictures of signs?!

    Look through the evidence and find things to rebut - such as the signage being unclear, illegible, sparse/nothing to show how close the car was to a sign.

    Or the witness statement/contract being heavily redacted, out of date, not signed by the landowner, or even just that it shows no expiry date (POPLA seem to like that).

    Your comments are to rebut the operator's case, blow by blow.

    Do not re-write your appeal or call it 'an appeal' or POPLA will not read it.

    Examples of evidence 'comments' here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69778312#post69778312

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69835948#post69835948


    What will likely happen in the end, re my POPLA appeal?

    Read the 'POPLA Decisions' sticky thread now; read it from the LAST post backwards, for recent wins. POPLA and the importance of rebutting the evidence in a final email to POPLA, is discussed here in the second half of this post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    Do you have to pay of you lose at POPLA? No!!



    ************************************************** ****************************



    The 'IAS' offered by IPC companies is considered far worse than POPLA.

    It is named and shamed on forum posts regularly as a 'kangaroo court' because even a strong appeal loses in almost every case. The IAS favours the parking firms and expects a mountain of evidence from the appellant. Do not use mitigating circumstances.

    HO87 explains the problems with the IAS anonymous and apparently unaccountable appeals system here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67067144#post67067144

    and this is typical thread where we've discussed the issue; all agree it appears to be a 'kangaroo court':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5149137

    Here I explain my reasons why I don't recommend trying the appeal at IAS stage, except in very rare cases where you have a slam-dunk winning point:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    However, if it's a lease/hire car and a NTK went to the hire firm first, you CAN potentially win at IAS by cribbing from this IAS win wording:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67815901#post67815901

    DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT PAY 15 FOR THE 'BINDING' IAS VERSION!

    Please don't start a thread asking if you should appeal to the IAS unless you have very rare circumstances that might make yours worth a try.

    The answer is NO, do not try IAS at all.


    As always, DO NOT OVERLOOK THE POWER OF A COMPLAINT TO RETAILER/LANDOWNER ABOUT THESE SCUM FIRMS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249

    SO GET COMPLAINING, EVEN IF THE PCN WAS FROM MONTHS BEFORE.


    What will happen if I lose at POPLA or IAS?

    It changes nothing, just takes you back to square one. It is not a reason to pay, even though the decision will tell you to! Discussed here and in other threads you can find by searching this forum for 'lost IAS' or 'lost POPLA':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5334100

    What happens would be:

    - you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below. No need to panic.

    or

    - you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim, and they might be buoyed by an IAS 'win' under their belt to brandish. If that happens, see post #2 above about beating a claim!



    What will happen if I do not bother with the IAS stage?

    Same as the advice for those who lose. Don't pay.

    Ignore debt collector letters as per post #4 of this advice thread - except to tell them in writing (keep proof of posting/emailing) if you move house, to make sure you never miss court papers a couple of years later.

    Come back and read post #2 if you get a small claim, which defendants coached here win 99% of the time.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-07-2018 at 11:33 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE

    DO NOT PANIC!




    CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH, THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR TALKING AD INFINITUM ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR LETTER CHAINS SO PLEASE SPARE US!!!!!!! DO NOT START A NEW THREAD ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR TEDIUM, PLEASE, JUST SEARCH AND READ WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID.


    READ THIS CLICKY LINK (YES THE BLUE BIT, CLICK ON IT!) AND DO NOT, PLEASE DON'T, START A NEW THREAD ABOUT ROSSENDALES or DEBT RECOVERY PLUS OR ZZPS OR WRIGHT HASSALL!



    Debt Collectors letters or threats of court? Thinking you may be too late to appeal?

    You may get debt collector letters, e.g. 'Debt Recovery Plus' (also using trading names of 'PCS' and 'Zenith') or you might have 'ZZPS' or even solicitor letter heading from 'Gladstones' or 'Wright Hassall' which actually asks for payment to a debt collector = a debt collector letter then!


    THESE ARE NOT BAILIFFS, THEY CANNOT SEND THE BOYS ROUND! THIS IS JUST A LETTER-CHAIN YOU GET IF YOU HAVE NOT APPEALED.
    See this linked explanatory video which will help you to see it for what it is and say 'big deal' about the letters:
    LINK: Is a debt collector the same as a bailiff? - StepChange...


    All the blue wording below includes a link for you to click about the stupid debt collectors so click on the name:

    If you have letters from any debt collector such as Debt Recovery Plus or Zenith and are on the face of it, too late to 'appeal', then (if in England/Wales) either ignore them or robustly respond.

    To be clear - I recommend ignoring debt collectors, as the response leads nowhere - certainly NEVER ring them!

    As well as the links shown (click on the blue words), here's a strong response to send if the PPC says you are 'too late' and it's now with a debt collector:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82895&st=20&p=904431&#entry904 431

    ...and here's a case (link below) where a strong response to ParkingEye when they were nearly at court stage, pulled it back to a POPLA appeal stage even though ParkingEye had already stated (wrongly) that it was 'too late' for POPLA. It is NOT too late for POPLA, insist on it and they can't easily take it to court. You can make their position very difficult - and maybe a POPLA code and rejection letter will follow as it did here. months after the parking event:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=63990978#post63990978


    IF YOU REALLY WANT TO WASTE HOURS ON IT THEN PLEASE NO NEW THREAD, JUST SEARCH THE PARKING FORUM FOR THEIR NAME AND MAKE A CUPPA AND READ ALL ABOUT THEIR SILLY LETTER CHAINS, AND EITHER SEND ONE ROBUST REPLY OR TOTALLY IGNORE THEM.

    I recommend the second option.

    THAT'S ALL.


    KEEP ALL THE LETTERS IN CASE IT BECOMES HARASSMENT, OR IN CASE THE PPC EVER TRY A SMALL CLAIM.


    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-09-2017 at 9:49 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    COMPLAINTS (AND COMMON ACRONYMS EXPLAINED):


    Always complain to the landowner/retailer very quickly and assertively:


    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249 Look how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner!

    Most fake PCNs can be cancelled if it is a retailer car park, simply by COMPLAINING! If you go for the complaint assertively and quickly you won't even have to bother with any of the above appeals/POPLA stuff!

    Look at the linked thread above - I have given typical contact emails in post #3 - for stores, and tips about who to moan at if it's not a shop on site. Also there's a template 'rant' of a complaint letter to give you the flavour of how angry a customer is entitled to be about this utter harassment, particularly if your only error was taking too long shopping!

    Retail Park with lots of stores? Google it and find the management or landowner contact details.


    ************************************************** **************************************

    Complaining about an AOS member (BPA or IPC member, anywhere in the UK):

    Contact details for complaints to the BPA or IPC (as applicable to your PPC) and the DVLA below.

    These are useful resources to influence getting parking charges cancelled, such as when an AOS member has not followed POFA 2012 but is still alleging the keeper is 'liable' or if their signage is missing or if they refuse to give you a POPLA/IAS code, or have clearly breached their applicable Code of Practice:


    DVLA:
    Complain every time to the DVLA if your PPC are faffing around not sending you a POPLA or IAS code even if you appealed in time, or have breached the Code of Practice.

    Point out that any breach of the Code of Practice the PPC is signed up to, breaches the KADOE contract to get DVLA data. State that the matter has been escalated to the CCR team because you have no confidence in the data release team to take such a complaint seriously as it's in the public domain that they have dismissed these issues far too many times recently without so much as even supplying a copy of the DVLA complaints procedure leaflet. State that if your complaint is not resolved properly your intention would be to involve your MP and refer the issue to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=65678397&highlight=#post65678397


    email - ccrt@dvla.gov.uk

    Customer Complaint Resolution Team
    D16W
    DVLA
    Swansea
    SA6 7JL




    BPA:

    email: aos@britishparking.co.uk

    Steve Clark
    Head of Operational Services
    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN




    IPC

    The IPC website has the following info about complaints:

    Compliance Monitoring
    ''The IPC is not able to consider complaints about members unless it is regarding an alleged instance of non-compliance of the Code. Similarly, the IPC are not able to interfere with decisions of Parking Operators in relation to the validity of charges that they issue... If you need to refer a complaint to us then please contact us.''

    IPC email (not that they will likely reply to mere consumers, by all accounts): contact@theIPC.info


    ************************************************** ***********************


    Some forum acronyms explained (REMEMBER THAT SOME OF THESE WILL NOT MEAN ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE FORUM)


    AOS = Approved Operator Scheme of an Accredited Trade Association such as the BPA (or the new one, the IPC).

    AoS = Acknowledgement of Service (of a claim form). See the second post for the link showing how to acknowledge a claim.

    ATA = Accredited Trade Association (like the BPA or IPC, that means AOS members can get your DVLA data).

    BPA = British Parking Association, merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side, however you can use them to complain).

    DPO = Data Protection Officer. Send a SAR to the 'DPO' for all data - check their Privacy page.

    IAS = a 2nd stage 'SO CALLED independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales for IPC AOS members only. Pointless.

    IPC = International Parking Community - merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side).

    LBCCC/LBC/LBA = Letter Before County Court Claim/Letter Before Claim/Letter Before Action. DO NOT IGNORE IT. How to respond.

    MCOL = Money Claim Online - Google it!

    NTH = Notice To Hirer (if you are the hirer/lessee, e.g. hired or company cars). Easy to win!

    NTK = Notice to Keeper which should be the first letter sent to the registered keeper. See below for how to appeal if in England/Wales.

    POC = Particulars of Claim (the short paragraph on the left middle of a claim form, with very sparse facts).

    PPC = our forum shorthand only, for 'private parking company'.

    POFA 2012 = Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (specifically Schedule 4 as linked below). England/Wales ONLY.

    POPLA = Parking on Private Land Appeals - a 2nd stage 'independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales and for BPA AOS members only.

    SAR = Subject Access Request, under the GDPR (data protection law), as discussed here:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784

    WS = Witness Statement. See post #2. If you have a claim, you must file a Witness Statement (and your evidence and exhibits) before the hearing, as well as the initial defence statement.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 04-12-2018 at 2:20 PM.
    • Crabman
    • By Crabman 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    • 9,712 Posts
    • 7,146 Thanks
    Crabman
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:



    Any posts made here will be archived to this thread.
    Last edited by Crabman; 13-10-2017 at 9:06 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

    • john123nufc
    • By john123nufc 16th Dec 18, 1:30 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    john123nufc
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:30 PM
    PCN on private land - legal proceedings
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:30 PM
    PLEASE HELP!!!
    I received a PCN from ARMTRAC and tried to appeal several times within the 28 day time scale. They replied to my appeals stating I could not appeal as I had not name the driver (I informed them I was the owner of the vehicle and was appealing). I was appealing as the signs state you have to park within an allocated bay but no bays are marked within the car park as it is just a private field. I then tried to appeal to IPC but was unable to lodge an appeal as the fine has not been registered with IPC. I asked AMTRAC about this and their response was..
    "As you failed to to supply us with the information previously requested [sic naming the driver], no appeal was addressed. Therefore your details have not been uploaded onto the IPC website.As previously stated in our last response.
    This matter is now closed and we will not enter into any further correspondence regarding an appeal for this PCN."

    I have not received a demand for 160 from bw legal specialists for full payment within 16 days otherwise they will take court proceedings.
    Should I pay the 160 to avoid further fees?
    • trisontana
    • By trisontana 16th Dec 18, 1:38 PM
    • 9,007 Posts
    • 13,896 Thanks
    trisontana
    • #8
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:38 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:38 PM
    PLEASE HELP!!!
    I received a PCN from ARMTRAC and tried to appeal several times within the 28 day time scale. They replied to my appeals stating I could not appeal as I had not name the driver (I informed them I was the owner of the vehicle and was appealing). I was appealing as the signs state you have to park within an allocated bay but no bays are marked within the car park as it is just a private field. I then tried to appeal to IPC but was unable to lodge an appeal as the fine has not been registered with IPC. I asked AMTRAC about this and their response was..
    "As you failed to to supply us with the information previously requested [sic naming the driver], no appeal was addressed. Therefore your details have not been uploaded onto the IPC website.As previously stated in our last response.
    This matter is now closed and we will not enter into any further correspondence regarding an appeal for this PCN."

    I have not received a demand for 160 from bw legal specialists for full payment within 16 days otherwise they will take court proceedings.
    Should I pay the 160 to avoid further fees?
    Originally posted by john123nufc
    Please see post #6 on this thread and start your own thread!
    What part of "A whop bop-a-lu a whop bam boo" don't you understand?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Dec 18, 1:39 PM
    • 20,730 Posts
    • 32,651 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:39 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Dec 18, 1:39 PM
    PLEASE HELP!!!
    I received a PCN from ARMTRAC
    Did you by any chance read post #6 above?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Dec 18, 9:35 AM
    • 38,076 Posts
    • 85,413 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    bobby381, you obviously did not read enough. Post 6 of this thread specifically tells you not to post here.

    Please read the sticky thread for NEWBIES then start your own thread if you need further help. Please delete you post from this thread, as I will also do to mine in a little while.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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