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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 7th Dec 06, 5:16 PM
    • 8,116Posts
    • 42,310Thanks
    MSE Martin
    Proposed Mortgage Broker Code of Conduct
    • #1
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:16 PM
    Proposed Mortgage Broker Code of Conduct 7th Dec 06 at 5:16 PM
    Hi following on from the discussion here I have drafted up a code of conduct. I thought it'd be easier for this to be the first post so everyone can see it so I've closed the other one off (sorry to make everyone jumpa round)....

    Here’s my rough draft attempt – knocked out so ignore any grammer type errors, no point polishing a discussion document. And I am open to suggestions or changes.

    Mortgage Broker Code of Conduct
    • Mortgage Brokers are very welcome on this board and are thanked for the time and effort they put in to help users. This site believes that it is always better to use a mortgage broker to get a mortgage than go direct to a bank or building society (see Mortgage Broker article) (LINK TO BE ADDED)

    • If mortgage brokers want to add a signature about being a broker to their post it should be “I am a mortgage broker, however any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes and should not be seen as financial advice.” There should be no note about the company you work for or any links. Mortgage brokers who choose not to use the signature should not indicate they are brokers in any other way within their posts.
    • Mortgage Brokers may have a single link to their website in their profiles.
    • Mortgage Brokers should not tout for business on the boards. They should not do unsolicited PMs offering services. Not should they ever say ‘see my profile for who I work for’ or any such guize. However if a user requests their service either via PM or post then I have no objection to that and the business generated. Any mortgage broker found to be flouting this ‘no touting’ rule will potentially lose their rights to post on the forum (PPR).
    • To prevent accusations of touting. Mortgage brokers should not simply reply to questions with what essentially boils down to a short answer then a plug for ‘you need to seek advice’. It’s important that brokers aren’t attempting to genuinely help the user with a specific answer, can’t answer the question directly then its best not to answer. There are enough links to where to get info and advice in the forum and the site to enable people to seek advice if they need to.
    • Brokers should be mindful that non-brokers can have valid opinions on mortgages too, and this forum isn’t a ‘broker-only zone’. I would direct brokers to read this post which details the sites position on advice sadly this site cannot and will not adjudicate on ‘what is good advice’
    • If brokers are following rules 1 to 6 code of conduct; this site will (resources permitting) be supportive. If posters are trying to stop the flow of information and disrupt it (which includes simply linking to site articles without reason/reasoning) as opposed to simply disagreeing on info or advice the site abuse team will err on the side of brokers.
    Let me know - this isn't set in stone - its a suggestion to move forward
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

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Page 1
  • herbiesjp
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:18 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:18 PM
    Seems good to me
    I am a Mortgage Adviser

    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a Mortgage Adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • payless
    • By payless 7th Dec 06, 5:20 PM
    • 6,608 Posts
    • 2,361 Thanks
    payless
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:20 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:20 PM
    as my reply was on old thread- I'll copy it -


    Martin, can't see much wrong with that-
    just a few of initial thoughts:-

    As most mortgage brokers are also either IFAs or Protection advisers, perhaps this could be included someway.

    On that point, is this the basis of signatures for IFAs / protection only advisers also

    Guess we are avoiding the independent / Whole of market/ fees free statements as this just confuses matters ?
    Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as (financial) advice.
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 7th Dec 06, 5:21 PM
    • 8,116 Posts
    • 42,310 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:21 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:21 PM
    Two other quick thoughts

    1. Is there any thing we should add to the sig that sort of says "this hasn't been checked" because it enables everyone to add it.

    2. I thin we need to understand new brokers may post without reading this. If that happens can i ask regulars to send a polite PM to them suggesting they read the code of conduct (once its up) to save problems.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 7th Dec 06, 5:23 PM
    • 8,116 Posts
    • 42,310 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:23 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:23 PM
    Payless

    1. Yes as there are no checks I dont want to go into whole of market/fees free. The sites view on that is clear and obvious, if people choose to use brokers who aren't either/or then thats their decision.

    2. Hmmm let's keep this to mortgages for the moment. Protection only advisers aren't really relevant (as that's more for the insurance board - and lets do one step at a time).

    Perpahs IFAs who do mortgages should simply say "mortgage IFA" rather than "mortgage broker" or is it acceptable parlance for them to be mortgage brokers too?
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 7th Dec 06, 5:24 PM
    • 8,116 Posts
    • 42,310 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:24 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:24 PM
    PS. Right Im off to do other things - will check this thread tomorrrow - please lets keep on track rather than rehashing old ground and personal issues
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 7th Dec 06, 5:26 PM
    • 98,581 Posts
    • 67,058 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:26 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:26 PM
    I think the rules or interchangeable with GI advisers, mortgage advisers and investment advisers.

    You can be all of those things or just one of them. However, the board rules would apply to each class well enough. i.e. investment advisers instead of mortgage, read investment product.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • kenshaz
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:27 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:27 PM
    The motive is good ,so we should respect that,greater awareness has been created and let us hope that a change of culture evolves.
    Last edited by kenshaz; 07-12-2006 at 5:34 PM.
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

    • payless
    • By payless 7th Dec 06, 5:28 PM
    • 6,608 Posts
    • 2,361 Thanks
    payless
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:28 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 06, 5:28 PM
    I personally like the
    " I'm a mortgage / insurance /investment adviser * FSA ref 000000 "
    but guess the appointed reps / employees won't like it
    ( delete as approp *)

    edit crossed with Martin's/ Duns previous post
    Last edited by payless; 07-12-2006 at 5:32 PM.
    Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as (financial) advice.
    • UK007BullDog
    • By UK007BullDog 7th Dec 06, 5:31 PM
    • 2,547 Posts
    • 1,394 Thanks
    UK007BullDog
    I am one of the brokers who at times say to those seeking advice to contact a broker. I do it not to tout as I never give my email address, website or other contact details and if you look at my profile you can see there is nothing. I get the odd PM message asking for help. As I do not wish to be seen to take work from this site I tend to reply with basic info and ask the person to contact a broker in their area for proper best advice.

    I cannot see how telling people to go to see a broker is bad. Some of the cases here are so complex that a proper fact find has to be done and advice given here should be taken with a pinch of salt at times as the broker does not get the full history.

    People should be happy that brokers are here on this website to give pointers and information. I think most people realise that going to any adviser and speaking to them face to face or on the telephone is better than posting here.

    I have cut back a lot as well, not so much as I have not been attacked much myself but because seeing how some of the brokers get abused by a few individuals. I have invested a lot of money in my profession and we have to sit exams every year and be signed off as fit and proper. I dont see why I should let myself be abused by someone who clearly does not understand how we work and why we have disclaimers etc.

    I also do not like the idea of having posts edited by someone who thinks they know better than I do. The first edited post would be my last post on here. I have knowledge to share, if someone wants to use it fine. If not then just ignore my post.

    If you really want to remove any ambiguety on a broker I would not allow a website link or visible email address in the profile.

    Brokers should have a tag to state they are brokers/advisers/underwriters etc. This will help those asking for advice that what they read has some merit.

    Maybe the board monitors should ask those claiming to be brokers for their credentials?


    ************************************************

    On a more personal note:

    I might not be coming back here for a long while. I have received a job offer from a major high street bank which is too good to walk away and will be accepting as soon as the docs hit my welcome mat. I will be moving into a semi management position and also training as an IFA probably specialising into pension investments or lifetime mortgages or even both. I do not yet know if I might return as a tied lender specialist, have to read the small print on that and have to have a chat with the compliance department next year.
    • payless
    • By payless 7th Dec 06, 5:37 PM
    • 6,608 Posts
    • 2,361 Thanks
    payless
    Kenshaz (I'm answering a post thats now changed)

    1. The articles are linked on the top of every page
    2. I think most people come to the forum, after they see the articles
    3. I'm sure users (including yourself) will point out anything posted thats wrong - the articles are a good source of general info, and at times a link to them is in fact all whats needed
    Last edited by payless; 07-12-2006 at 5:52 PM.
    Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as (financial) advice.
    • payless
    • By payless 7th Dec 06, 5:44 PM
    • 6,608 Posts
    • 2,361 Thanks
    payless
    UK007bulldog.. good luck with the job ( some might say "sold your soul to the devil" ;-) )

    The crux is the site worked well before with advisers posting generally within the perimeters suggested - this just formalises it a bit - fairer for all

    The complex cases can still benefit from a comment of areas that might be discussed/ raised with an adviser , for example I would normally suggest a FTB sits down with an adviser face to face ( thats puts most advisers here and L&C out of reach) but thats not to say initial queries can't be answered
    Last edited by payless; 07-12-2006 at 5:50 PM.
    Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as (financial) advice.
  • kenshaz
    [quote=MSE Martin]Two other quick thoughts

    1. Is there any thing we should add to the sig that sort of says "this hasn't been checked" because it enables everyone to add it.



    Yes .most definitely the reader of the signature should be made aware of the fact that this is a public forum ,and the statement relating to the fact that they are a mortgage broker is not substantiated and is there purely for guidance and should not be relied upon for authenticity.
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

  • kenshaz
    I am one of the brokers who at times say to those seeking advice to contact a broker. I do it not to tout as I never give my email address, website or other contact details and if you look at my profile you can see there is nothing. I get the odd PM message asking for help. As I do not wish to be seen to take work from this site I tend to reply with basic info and ask the person to contact a broker in their area for proper best advice.

    I cannot see how telling people to go to see a broker is bad. Some of the cases here are so complex that a proper fact find has to be done and advice given here should be taken with a pinch of salt at times as the broker does not get the full history.

    People should be happy that brokers are here on this website to give pointers and information. I think most people realise that going to any adviser and speaking to them face to face or on the telephone is better than posting here.

    I have cut back a lot as well, not so much as I have not been attacked much myself but because seeing how some of the brokers get abused by a few individuals. I have invested a lot of money in my profession and we have to sit exams every year and be signed off as fit and proper. I dont see why I should let myself be abused by someone who clearly does not understand how we work and why we have disclaimers etc.

    I also do not like the idea of having posts edited by someone who thinks they know better than I do. The first edited post would be my last post on here. I have knowledge to share, if someone wants to use it fine. If not then just ignore my post.

    If you really want to remove any ambiguety on a broker I would not allow a website link or visible email address in the profile.

    Brokers should have a tag to state they are brokers/advisers/underwriters etc. This will help those asking for advice that what they read has some merit.

    Maybe the board monitors should ask those claiming to be brokers for their credentials?


    ************************************************

    On a more personal note:

    I might not be coming back here for a long while. I have received a job offer from a major high street bank which is too good to walk away and will be accepting as soon as the docs hit my welcome mat. I will be moving into a semi management position and also training as an IFA probably specialising into pension investments or lifetime mortgages or even both. I do not yet know if I might return as a tied lender specialist, have to read the small print on that and have to have a chat with the compliance department next year.
    by UK007BullDog
    UK007BULLDOG is a respected mortgage who certainly does not tout ,I refer you to her statement in respect to how having weblinks and emails in profiles retains and creates ambiguity in the perception of the broker and if removed would greatly assist ,her words not mine.In fact she goes on to say that ,she would not allow.
    Why do you consider that these links in profiles are necessary,can you give me some form of justification,some of our most prominent posters function without links?
    MARTIN I agree with each paragraph of UK007BullDog,whilst I realise that you wish to finalise the situation .I believe that it is important to take into account her views,they are relevant and it is important to give a well rounded and fair response.
    Last edited by kenshaz; 07-12-2006 at 6:42 PM.
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

  • kenshaz
    UK007bulldog.. good luck with the job ( some might say "sold your soul to the devil" ;-) )

    The crux is the site worked well before with advisers posting generally within the perimeters suggested - this just formalises it a bit - fairer for all

    The complex cases can still benefit from a comment of areas that might be discussed/ raised with an adviser , for example I would normally suggest a FTB sits down with an adviser face to face ( thats puts most advisers here and L&C out of reach) but thats not to say initial queries can't be answered
    by payless
    But a statement like that reduces choice,the posts will listen ,and believe that is a fact and it is an opinion,they will feel that it is necessary and it is not.It is not essential that FTB,s sit down face to face ,and it unfairly eliminates some very good companies .
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

  • kenshaz
    I personally would remove signatures ,because I believe that it is a form of advertising,I would also remove any reference to mortgage in user names,I feel that is also a form of advertising.
    These are my views ,so before any-one goes off on a tangent ,they are not directed at any individual.
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

    • MortgageMamma
    • By MortgageMamma 7th Dec 06, 6:50 PM
    • 6,495 Posts
    • 3,231 Thanks
    MortgageMamma
    I'm happy to do whatever Martin decides is best. It is his site after all.

    Kenshaz Martin has already said, if a broker helps you through this site, there's no reason not to use them. So any broker who wants to accept business when PM'd by a forum user is free to do so (not that most of us can, due to our existing businesses keeping us busy).

    So signatures and links or no signatures and links - if approached by a forum user, a broker is entitled to offer their details if they so choose. It is quite obvious, even when sigs removed who is a broker. I've sussed a few without signatures.

    Just wanted to add, UKBULLDOG007 - good luck with the new job, I'm sure you will be very sucessful, and, if you choose not to return to the site, thankyou for all your input so far. You have been a good resource for the forum users.

    MM
    I am a Mortgage Adviser

    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
  • kenshaz
    I also find it difficult to understand how in a fair and just system ,which this site is, how it can be possible to include a section which shows bias towards a broker ,by stating it will ''err on the side of the broker.''Therefore if I post as a broker with no credential check ,I will automatically be given ,favour..
    Rules must be across the board ,you cannot show favoritism to one group,and ''err on their side'' no democratic system of law would allow that,but I also realise that this system is autocratic,but you are a fair minded person.
    Therefore you will have to instruct your team to show bias,from the onset of this saga ,you have attempted to give the minority a voice ,do not fall at the last hurdle in an attempt to appease(with respect).

    All users are equal ,irrespective of profession,religion ,creed or colour ,where do we draw the line,once we open the box the monster is out.

    An analogy would be.If plumbers are called cow-boys on a board and links are used to direct users to reputable plumbers,do we ''err on the side of the plumber'' but it must be within reason or reasonable will be your reply ,the moderators will be subjective with bias,what if they get it wrong and the cow-boy wins. I realise that the above is hypothetical and would probably not happen ,but I believe that it makes a point.
    Last edited by kenshaz; 07-12-2006 at 7:16 PM.
    To be happy you need to make someone happy.

  • EdInvestor
    It is quite obvious, even when sigs removed who is a broker.
    It probably is to you, but not necessarily to everyone.You would be surprised how many people think I am an IFA

    I quite often get PMs from people wanting proper "advice".
  • regularsaver1
    Kenshaz - Martin did point out this is not a broker-only site, so you should have no worry of posting, and nor do I
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