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  • FIRST POST
    Cashpig74
    The TMB, Challenor Investments and a Mis-sold Mortgage
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 09, 9:18 AM
    The TMB, Challenor Investments and a Mis-sold Mortgage 8th Mar 09 at 9:18 AM
    Bought a place through "challenor" in 2006 - they are now being investigated by the fraud squad thankfully - and I end up (via dodgy solicitors and mortgage brokers) with an 85% mortgage from the TMB.

    They used the "valuation" at the time as a purchase price and used the so called 15% discount I received as a "gifted deposit".

    No actual deposit was ever made. I got an apparent discount from 180,000 to 150,000 and the TMB lent me 150,000. SO - I have a 100% mortgage as they lent me 100% of the purchase price.

    Has anyone ever come accross these "gifted deposits" - "discounts" and dodgy "valuations" before?

    It's all in hand now as I've raised the complaint with the FOS and they are fully investigating it for me.

    There's more to it than that also - dodgy paperwork, no actual monies changing hands, AND the bank says that this was a re-mortgage application but they have no evidence of who actually owned it previous to my mortgage application.!!
Page 1
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Mar 09, 12:59 PM
    • 98,581 Posts
    • 67,058 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 09, 12:59 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 09, 12:59 PM
    Is this a new build appartment or similar? If so, that sort of thing was fairly common. The fraud is usually on the legals side. Such as not recording the correct value on the land registry.

    Gifted deposits is a scam but not illegal unless you present it incorrectly. All the builders do is increase the price of a build and then give you the amount back and call it a discount.

    It's all in hand now as I've raised the complaint with the FOS and they are fully investigating it for me.
    That means you must have had your complaint rejected then in the first place. That doesnt bode well as the overturn rate from complaints to the FOS is only about 1/3rd and if the fraud isnt in an area where the FOS have remit (which is basically only on the mortgage adviser and the lender) then they cannot do anything.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • opinions4u
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 09, 1:04 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 09, 1:04 PM
    While it doesn't sound like a great situation, in what way have you been ripped off?

    You went in to the deal knowing you were really paying 150k for a property.

    Perhaps the lender is the real victim here?
  • Cashpig74
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 09, 2:32 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 09, 2:32 PM
    I think the lender is a victim also - but I was told that the property was at the market value of 180,000 and with the builders discount, it meant I only needed to borrow 150,000 for it. Therefore the 30,000 (which was promised as an instant equity stake) would be available upon sale if sold at 180,000 - the market value.

    The thing is, I now know that the property was never worth that in the first place so I paid 150,000 for a property that was only ever worth 150,000 from day one - but the bank sees it as an 85% BtL mortgage.

    This is incorrect. The PURCHASE price was not 180,000 - it was 150,000 and that was the total borrowed amount. So in fact the bank has actually lent me a 100% mortgage on a BtL - which is against their rules. They have been "done" by the mortgage broker for sure - tampered with paperwork etc... but still, their checking methods were slack and their surveyor should have pointed out that these flats were grossly over priced.

    They were new builds.

    The mortgage is mis-sold - whether the bank realised it or not, so I am obviously seeking redress - but it is complex.

    They have made major errors though - I cannot go through all the details on here but the FOS are dealing with it.

    They did not reject it - I contacted them first of all and they dealt with the case from day one. If they thought I did not have a case, then they would not pursue one. They are assigning a case worker and adjudicator to the case this week too.

    I have much more evidence to come from the TMB - for example:

    they have NO evidence of any deposits paid by anyone on the flat

    they have NO paperwork showing who I bought the flat from (who they paid)

    they claim it was a re-mortgage application but I never owned it previously - (you'd think they would know that.... but no..)

    there was a bridging loan used "apparently" but TMB cannot explain how or why this was part of the process, but they accepted it nonetheless

    I paid stamp duty. Why - if this was meant to be a remortgage..??

    I was asked to sign paperwork for documents 6 months after the event and return them UNDATED....




    I do not feel sorry for the bank, they have insurance against this kind of thing. But I have been grossly mis-sold this mortgage, and they haven't had much to say about it either.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Mar 09, 6:07 PM
    • 98,581 Posts
    • 67,058 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:07 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:07 PM
    They did not reject it - I contacted them first of all and they dealt with the case from day one. If they thought I did not have a case, then they would not pursue one. They are assigning a case worker and adjudicator to the case this week too.
    If the lender is dealing with it then the FOS will not. You cannot go to the FOS until the lender rejects your complaint and issues you with the deadlock letter. The FOS will not start a complaint review until the lender has looked at it first.

    I have much more evidence to come from the TMB - for example:

    they have NO evidence of any deposits paid by anyone on the flat

    they have NO paperwork showing who I bought the flat from (who they paid)

    they claim it was a re-mortgage application but I never owned it previously - (you'd think they would know that.... but no..)

    there was a bridging loan used "apparently" but TMB cannot explain how or why this was part of the process, but they accepted it nonetheless

    I paid stamp duty. Why - if this was meant to be a remortgage..??

    I was asked to sign paperwork for documents 6 months after the event and return them UNDATED....
    The lender doenst need to know about a number of those things. Especially if they are not the ones that are facilitating the arrangement of the mortgage. It is the mortgage adviser that needs to know these things.

    But I have been grossly mis-sold this mortgage
    I dont see it. You went to borrow money to buy a property and you get the money to buy the property. There may be errors in bits and bobs but the end result is that you got what you were after. The bits in between may not have been done correctly and that would see the lender being the loser here potentially but not you.

    If you have been done, its the builder that did it.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Mr E Man
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:23 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:23 PM
    All I hear is "I bought a flat to make some money and I couldn't believe I didn't need a deposit. Now I'm not able to get a tenant and the flats not worth as much as the mortgage. Who can I blame"?
  • bdl1brick
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:39 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:39 PM
    This was quite a common transaction up until recently, the property was bought with bridging finance 'under value' at 150k then remortgaged at the 'true value' of 180k on the same or next day. You would have had to pay stamp duty on the original purchase.

    The mortgage lender TMB would or should have been informed by the conveyancer that the property had recently been bought 'under value' prior to remortgage.

    There is nothing illegal in this sort of transaction as far as i'm aware. The 'true value' of the property is debatable but a TMB approved valuer would have confirmed this and it would have been up to you to make your own investigations into the 'true value' at the time.
  • Cashpig74
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:50 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 09, 6:50 PM
    Oh dear - this forum is full of self-rightous prikks...

    The fraud squad have informed me in a 4 hour conversation that NONE of these mortgage should have been sanctioned, then I think he would be better placed than you lot to make that judgement.

    There was no actual bridging loan - it was a scam - i signed NO papers for a bridging loan. The purchase price was not 180,000 - never was. The builders offered a discount - so I bought it for a reduced amount regardless of the "value".

    The bank lent me 150,000. If one of their "surveyors" who probably never even left the office to make a valuation - said it was worth 1.5million - would that mean that I would only have a 10% mortgage?

    No. Regardless of the so called value, I bought it for 150,000 and thats what the bank lent me. it is a 100% BtL mortgage which should never have happened.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Mar 09, 7:23 PM
    • 98,581 Posts
    • 67,058 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 09, 7:23 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 09, 7:23 PM
    The fraud squad have informed me in a 4 hour conversation that NONE of these mortgage should have been sanctioned, then I think he would be better placed than you lot to make that judgement.
    Who have they charged then in relation to this then? Where is the media coverage?

    it is a 100% BtL mortgage which should never have happened.
    What value is on the land registry? If its 180k then its not a 100% mortgage.

    In reality it should be 150k if the value was overstated and there has been some reported frauds around on that point but in those areas it has been the firm doing the legals that was commiting the fraud. Not a firm that the FOS has any remit over.

    All that said, you still got what you asked for. You asked to borrow 150k and you got the 150k. When you arranged your own survey, what did the surveyor say with regards to the value? Did he say it was not worth 180k?
    Last edited by dunstonh; 08-03-2009 at 9:07 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • FraudBuster
    Today, 7:16 PM #99 Cashpig74 vbmenu_register("postmenu_19525171", true);
    MoneySaving Convert


    Join Date: Nov 2008
    Post Count: 61
    Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts





    OMG - you ppl are WORSE than the banks themselves!! You ALL came in here and made first posts as negative drama queens. You all think you own this precious little unimportant site and wanna suck Martin's c*ock till the interest rate drops below zero.

    Id rather be bankrupt for ever than be part of this sckening clique...

    *vomits*




    *remebers he is 5,600 better off*


  • Cashpig74
    firstly, the surveyor that did it was a bank associated surveyor and gave the exact prive that challenor suggested. The fraud squad have made 5 arrests and its a massive ongoing investigation.

    it comes down to the purchase price. the bank has not done enough checks - clearly, and they have given me a 100% mortgage. there was no deposit and you cannot accept a discount as deposit. it has to be an actual cash sum proven to go towards to seller as part payment. i made no such payment and no one else made a payment. the paper work was doctored to show things that were not the case.

    regardless of whether i got the mortgage i asked for, i have still been mis-sold it. the mortgage was 100% of the actual purchase price. It was bought for 150,000. I have the builders paperwork to show that.

    the valuation was set higher to attract ppl to buy it and they got stung for a finders fee.
  • FraudBuster
    Today, 7:24 PM #107 Cashpig74 vbmenu_register("postmenu_19525461", true);
    MoneySaving Convert


    Join Date: Nov 2008
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    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts



    PS As you can see for my sig some of us like to save rather than take out borrowing to pay for things! I am saving for a new bathroom right now




    Thats great Kavanne, I hope you get it. Just, be a little less judgemental please, people borrow money all the time. i personally, believe in specualte to acumulate - sometimes is works out, sometimes it doesn;t. The trading didn;t. game over.
  • Cashpig74
    Oh I see "fraudbuster" is just one of these posters that wants to gain attention by repeating other peoples posts... fool.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Mar 09, 9:13 PM
    • 98,581 Posts
    • 67,058 Thanks
    dunstonh
    firstly, the surveyor that did it was a bank associated surveyor and gave the exact prive that challenor suggested.
    So, in other words, you relied solely on a basic valuation from someone that was not employed by you. You should have got your own suveyor. A lenders basic valuation is just that. In a rising market they would have no reason to question valuations that are within the ballpark of the required area. In a falling market they will be more pickey.

    it comes down to the purchase price. the bank has not done enough checks
    Why should they?

    clearly, and they have given me a 100% mortgage.
    Only if you lied on the application.

    there was no deposit and you cannot accept a discount as deposit.
    Yes they can if they accept that.

    it has to be an actual cash sum proven to go towards to seller as part payment.
    no it doesnt.

    i made no such payment and no one else made a payment. the paper work was doctored to show things that were not the case.
    who doctored the application?

    the valuation was set higher to attract ppl to buy it and they got stung for a finders fee.
    Yes. That is part of the scam. However, its legal status will depend on the disclosure given. However, at no point does it seem like the lender is the one that is at fault here. It would require the mortgage broker, legal team and builder to be involved and the value on land registry not correctly recorded. If you are chasing the lender then you are chasing a victim rather than the offender.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Cashpig74
    I never said at any point that the lender was the problem. They are also the victim in some way.

    You single handedly seem to have solved this mystery that the police have been working on for months, WOW - well done, you know EVERYTHING about the mortgage game inside out. You are amazing. Wrong though.
    • Dan_1976
    • By Dan_1976 8th Mar 09, 9:35 PM
    • 915 Posts
    • 379 Thanks
    Dan_1976
    These are going to be all over the place. From my experience (and it was from a distance and I remember shaking my head and calling my broker buddy's client a so and so) but the client in the cases I saw, thought they were being clever. They were getting almost 100% mortgages on new build flats with rental calculations from another planet and iffy agreements between builders and lenders!

    I am sorry but either your dim or your trying to get away with it!
    "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson
    "How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?" Woody Allen

    Debt Apr 2010 0
  • Cashpig74
    Erm, its called being "sold" and "ripped off" - and I have no problem with being ripped off - call me an idiot if you like, but there were many people that were stung.

    The mortgage provider - and i have checked with other banks - have not done anywhere near enough groundwork in lending me this money. I have a tenant too and always have had - thats not the issue - the issue is it was mis-sold. and thats a police opinion too. if I was wrong, then the FOS would have old me to pack my bags a long time ago - but there are assigned a case worker to me and told me I have a strong case.

    all i see in this thread, are posters looking for oneupmanship and trying to collect the "smartas*rse" of the thread award.

    jog on ..
  • FraudBuster
    Oh I see "fraudbuster" is just one of these posters that wants to gain attention by repeating other peoples posts... fool.
    A fool and his money are soon parted

    Meaning: Stupid people spend their money carelessly and soon become poor.
    Note: fool (noun) = a silly person; someone who acts unwisely or without care | be parted (verb) = be separated

    • Dan_1976
    • By Dan_1976 8th Mar 09, 10:41 PM
    • 915 Posts
    • 379 Thanks
    Dan_1976
    Sorry cashpig but how did I know it was a buy to let?

    OK you may have been sold but you have to admit you saw the nice figures and ignored the risks!

    I am fed up after telling a fair amount of people that these schemes are risky and then they complain when it goes wrong!

    My practice was invited to get involved in this type of set up and we declined as it was always going to end in tears.

    Ps. I am not smart enough to be a smart !!!!
    "Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson
    "How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?" Woody Allen

    Debt Apr 2010 0
  • Tiddler
    There's a saying in life........some you win, some you lose.

    Just because 1 mortgage company does certain checks does not mean that every mortgage company has to do the same checks.

    In your other thread you state that & I quote "I am not stupid" and I'm not saying you are, but surely you had concerns over the fact that you were buying a property worth 180k for 150k. Why would any business sell something for almost 20% below market value? Usually it's because they couldn't sell it at the original price. After all you wouldn't expect to buy a posh cake for the same price as a bread pudding would you?

    for those wondering what I'm on about

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1541119


    *awaits personal criticism & name calling*
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