Connecting flight query

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Hi all


My partner and I recently flew with Qatar Airways, from London Heathrow to Colombo (Sri Lanka). Our first flight from LHR to Doha landed on time, but our second flight was delayed arriving in Colombo around 3.5 hours.


As we bought these two flights on one ticket, with one booking reference, I had assumed that this would be covered under EC261 (although Qatar is not an EU carrier, we were departing originally from LHR). I thought I had seen a case where this siutation had been fought and won but annoyingly I can't locate it now. I made my claim using Resolver. Qatar have now come back to me to say we are not covered as Doha and Colombo are both outside of the EU, and they are not an EU carrier.


Interested in your thoughts...
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  • Tyzap
    Tyzap Posts: 2,112 Forumite
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    Hi all

    Interested in your thoughts...

    Hi strawberry,

    If there was no delay when you left LHR, that then caused you to miss your connection, you don't have a claim I'm afraid.

    The case you were looking for was Emirates, but there was a delay in the EU in that case which qualified it for compensation.

    Good luck,
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  • JPears
    JPears Posts: 5,086 Forumite
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    Qatar are lying to you.
    This matter was settled in the Gahan/Buckley v Emirates case in the Supreme Court.
    Part of the Judgement, that in bold type is the 1st and 2nd parts of your legal arguements.
    5. The Court of Appeal allowed Miss Gahan’s appeal and dismissed Emirate’s so that compensation was available for both legs in both cases. The Court started with the basic proposition that:
    ‘… where a carrier provides a passenger with more than one flight to enable him to arrive at his destination, the flights are taken together for the purpose of assessing whether there has been three hours or more delay.’ [73]
    6. Accordingly, what counted was the delay in a passenger reaching their final destination. This was based on EU jurisprudence from Sturgeon v Condor Flugdienst GmbH [2009] ECR 1-10923 (C-402/07 and C-432/07), and from Air France SA v Folkerts [2013] (C-11/11), in both of which the Court of Justice for the European Union (“CJEU”) held that compensation under Article 7 of the Regulation was to be quantified by reference to the delay in arriving at the passengers’ final destination. In the case of directly connecting flights, a passenger’s final destination was the destination of the last flight (Article 2(h)).
    Jurisdiction under the Regulation
    7. The Court went onto reject Emirates’ second argument that the Regulation did not apply to flights operated by non-Community carriers (such as Emirates) outside of the EU. The Court considered that the Regulation took effect:
    ‘… when the carrier is present in the EU and it imposes a contingent liability on the carrier at that point. The liability may never crystallise but if it does do so, it will crystallise outside the jurisdiction.’ [76]
    8. The basis for jurisdiction over non-Community carriers under the Regulation was, contrary to the submission on behalf of Emirates, territorial in nature [77]. It was sufficient that the first of two connecting flights departed from the EU. There were two reasons for this:
    (a) the activity outside the EU was not relevant to jurisdiction, but to quantum. The Regulation applies to non-Community carriers because they use EU airports. Measuring delay by reference to connecting flights is simply the best way of measuring inconvenience [78]; and
    (b) the decision was supported by the case of Holmes v Bangladesh Biman Corp [1989] AC 1112 which suggests that place of departure, stopping place, or destination are sufficient to avoid breaching extraterritoriality [79].
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  • JPears
    JPears Posts: 5,086 Forumite
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    Erm Tyzap, I fear you may be wrong, although I stand to be corrected if my interpretation of the judgement is wrong or taken out of contaxt?
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  • strawberry*
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    Thank you both for your replies. I think that Emirates case was the one I was thinking of. I am interested that you have both interpreted this in different ways though - could you expand on your viewpoint Tyzap?


    I still feel a little unsure about this as it appears that in the Emirates case there was a delay within the EU as well as a second delay and they were compensated for both in the end. In my case, there was no delay within the EU, just in reaching the final destination.


    Many thanks
  • Tyzap
    Tyzap Posts: 2,112 Forumite
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    edited 11 April 2018 at 6:21PM
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    JPears wrote: »
    Erm Tyzap, I fear you may be wrong, although I stand to be corrected if my interpretation of the judgement is wrong or taken out of contaxt?

    http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2029297

    and

    http://www.kennedyslaw.com/casereview/final-destination-considered-key-by-court-of-appeal-in-flight-delay-liability-claims/
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  • JPears
    JPears Posts: 5,086 Forumite
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    Those are articles written by journos?
    This is the law according to the Supreme court:
    5. The Court of Appeal allowed Miss Gahan!!!8217;s appeal and dismissed Emirate!!!8217;s so that compensation was available for both legs in both cases. The Court started with the basic proposition that:
    where a carrier provides a passenger with more than one flight to enable him to arrive at his destination, the flights are taken together for the purpose of assessing whether there has been three hours or more delay; [73]
    6. Accordingly, what counted was the delay in a passenger reaching their final destination. This was based on EU jurisprudence from Sturgeon v Condor Flugdienst GmbH [2009] ECR 1-10923 (C-402/07 and C-432/07), and from Air France SA v Folkerts [2013] (C-11/11), in both of which the Court of Justice for the European Union (!!!8220;CJEU!!!8221;) held that compensation under Article 7 of the Regulation was to be quantified by reference to the delay in arriving at the passengers!!!8217; final destination. In the case of directly connecting flights, a passenger!!!8217;s final destination was the destination of the last flight (Article 2(h)).
    If the flight started in the UK and finishes outside of the UK on a different leg, it is the whole journey that is considered in respect of regulation 261/2004. I think this is clear cut and unambiguous.
    I welcome the counter argument ;)
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  • Tyzap
    Tyzap Posts: 2,112 Forumite
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    If a passenger leaves the EU 2 hours late but misses their connection to Sydney, in say Dubai, they are at that point not due any compensation. Due to the missed connection they arrive at Sydney (their final destination) 6 hours late, they are then due EU261 compensation. Hence the final destination stipulation.

    Say the passenger left the EU on time and arrived at Dubai on time but then the flight to Sydney was delayed by 6 hours upon arrival (their final destination) they would not be due 261 compensation.

    Thats because the second flight is a none EU airline, departing from a none EU airport arriving at another none EU airport. No part of the delay occurred in the EU so no EU261 compensation.

    Nothing I have said is contradictory to your quote, it's just the way it is interpreted.

    If you can find a case where there was no delay in the EU, but compensation was paid, I would be very interested to read about it.:)
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  • JPears
    JPears Posts: 5,086 Forumite
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    Say the passenger left the EU on time and arrived at Dubai on time but then the flight to Sydney was delayed by 6 hours upon arrival (their final destination) they would not be due 261 compensation.

    Thats because the second flight is a none EU airline, departing from a none EU airport arriving at another none EU airport. No part of the delay occurred in the EU so no EU261 compensation.
    Is this not covered by point 5 and 6 of the Supreme Court ruling shown above?
    Perhaps yet another grey area that needs a legal precedent set?
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  • Caz3121
    Caz3121 Posts: 15,545 Forumite
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    JPears wrote: »
    Perhaps yet another grey area that needs a legal precedent set?

    I read it the same as Tyzap and the MSE article seems to be along the same lines https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2018/03/emirates-agrees-to-pay-compensation-for-missed-connections?_ga=2.259887690.1790666665.1518421612-2098061591.1442126683
    "If you were delayed on the first leg of your journey, missed a connecting flight as a result and arrived at your final destination at least three hours late, "

    If it was for delays anywhere along the journey, someone could fly LON-JFK on Virgin and that flight is on time, then have a flight from JFK-XXX with Delta which is delayed due to technical problems resulting in a 4 hour delay...who is there a claim from? Virgin flight all on time, Delta would decline as non-EU flight/carrier...
  • JPears
    JPears Posts: 5,086 Forumite
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    We will have to agree to disagree.
    Your link is to MSE's interpretation (and how often have they stated incorrect facts with regards to 261/2004?)
    I can see nothing in the CoA determination (my apologies for saying it was SC in error) that differentiates where the delay actually occurred?
    Again point 5 is pretty clear cut to me.
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