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HS2 is silly because the existing motorway network + high speed self drive cars will make HS2 use redundant.
Urban tunnels would be useful
Can't see anything obvious in the near future which would change that
No, I'm sure you can't! :rotfl:5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.0 -
My brother lives in California and his son-in-law bought a new Model S costing over US$100,000. He bought through his firm(which he owns) so presumably got State incentives.
He 'loves it to bits' and recons it is the fastest accelerating car sold in California including exotica(Ferrari/Porsche etc)
His one disappointment is the range. Even with strictly enforced speed limits, but heavy use of air conditioning, it is less than 200 miles instead of the quoted 300+
He visited me a couple of months ago with a hired Hyundai I20 manual and compained that the pick-up(acceleration) was abysmal. He has never owned a 'stick shift' and it transpired that he tried all overtaking of trucks etc in 5th gear.0 -
Why 2 seconds? That's 62 meters (~15 car lengths) distance between cars at 70mph.
0.5 seconds seems more reasonable that's about 3 car lengths
That increases the capacity to a max 28,800 per hour so a single tunnel would be fine
If you want more just use 6 seat EVs over 3 lines = 43,200 per hour max
Personally I think it would be a hybrid
With normal cars with just 1-4 passengers doing door to door
Plus 'train cars' doing station to station
The train cars can be perhaps 20 cars long connected together with 6 per car = 120 passengers
The idea with EV tunnels is they can be significantly smaller than train tunnels
Perhaps just 2.5 meters in diameter Vs 7.6m for Eurotunnel
That means you can build ~10 EV tunnels for 1 train tunnel
Or you can say it will cost about 1/10th as much
This also makes it more modular so prices and learning curves will be much better
To add to this
There is no other realistic way to build within a big urban city like London and the world is moving towards megacities that will be even more dense so will need mass transit. If a city doesn't have a Subway already a subway with BEVs rather than trains makes more sense
'Stations' could be as simple as a small car park where 4-6 passanger get in and get transported to the next 'station' which might be 5 miles away. At 60mph that would take just 5 minutes.
You could potentially build an underground motorway system under a city
The bulk of transport can be done underground with computer driven EVs allowing significantly higher speeds and safety.
You might even be able to move most cars to be underground leaving the surface to be built at much higher density or for walking/bike/scoot only
Don't expect anything like this anytime soon it's probably a post 2050 projects and probably for the super sized cities0 -
To add to this
There is no other realistic way to build within a big urban city like London and the world is moving towards megacities that will be even more dense so will need mass transit. If a city doesn't have a Subway already a subway with BEVs rather than trains makes more sense
Are there any 'big urban cities' that are 'moving towards becoming mega cities' that don't already have a subway or other rail-based mass transit?Don't expect anything like this anytime soon
or indeed, ever. :rotfl:5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.0 -
pile-o-stone wrote: »Are there any 'big urban cities' that are 'moving towards becoming mega cities' that don't already have a subway or other rail-based mass transit?
Yes even London falls into this category with the need to build more subways to keep up with population growth. Crossrail opening next year and crossrail two planned after that. So yes there is a need for more underground transport in all cities that are growing both existing ones and future ones
I'm suggesting rather than a conventional subway you can have a simpler smaller Subway where the trains are 6 seat BEVs
There are many advantages to this.
The first being the tunnel is almost 10x smaller so it should cost 10x less
In fact it might cost 20x less because building 10 versions of something you get learning experience and get better at it
Both the tunnel and the vehicle would also be simpler and cheaper
The tunnel wouldn't need rails or electrification so significantly cheaper and faster to build
The vehicle would be cheap because something like a model 3 is built in the hundreds of thousands perhaps millions in the future
A 12 carriage train costs over £30 million and can carry upto 1750 passangers that's over £17k per passenger. A model 3 costs £40k and can carry 4 passangers that's £10k a seat so almost half the price.
It would also be much more energy efficient
Right now a train has to run even if it is 5% full
A BEV tunnel can run just the number of cars it needsor indeed, ever.
This isn't really my idea it's the aim of Musks boring company and its a good idea
It makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons
You effectively have one mode of transportation repalce all others
Self drive BEV taxis
They take over human taxis
Then buses
Then private cars
At some point such a company will start building tunnels to make their fleet more efficient
To save time money and capital
Some 25 mile trips can be reduced to 10 miles in a straight tunnel
That's 1/3rd the energy use and 10x quicker so the taxi can go get the next fair paying customer
Lots of advantages
Airports could be one major route
A single tunnel from Heathrow branding off to perhaps 20 tunnels in zone 1/2 London
Toys make the tunnel as simple and basic as possible
Maybe not even lights as BEVs have their own
No ventilation needed as you can make the BEVs air tight or near enough
Faster quicker cheaper
Why hasn't anyone done this?
Well until recently battery transport didn't exist
Let's say the model 3 is the first true long range BEV at an okay price built in large numbers so it's only since 2019
It undercuts trains and tube carriages being almost half the price per seat
A model 3 long edition with 10 seats over 5 lines would be cheaper still per seat
And much less maintenance of a tunnel which is significantly less complex0 -
Yes even London falls into this category with the need to build more subways to keep up with population growth. Crossrail opening next year and crossrail two planned after that. So yes there is a need for more underground transport in all cities that are growing both existing ones and future ones
I'm suggesting rather than a conventional subway you can have a simpler smaller Subway where the trains are 6 seat BEVs
There are many advantages to this.
The first being the tunnel is almost 10x smaller so it should cost 10x less
In fact it might cost 20x less because building 10 versions of something you get learning experience and get better at it
Both the tunnel and the vehicle would also be simpler and cheaper
The tunnel wouldn't need rails or electrification so significantly cheaper and faster to build
The vehicle would be cheap because something like a model 3 is built in the hundreds of thousands perhaps millions in the future
A 12 carriage train costs over £30 million and can carry upto 1750 passangers that's over £17k per passenger. A model 3 costs £40k and can carry 4 passangers that's £10k a seat so almost half the price.
It would also be much more energy efficient
Right now a train has to run even if it is 5% full
A BEV tunnel can run just the number of cars it needs
This isn't really my idea it's the aim of Musks boring company and its a good idea
It makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons
You effectively have one mode of transportation repalce all others
Self drive BEV taxis
They take over human taxis
Then buses
Then private cars
At some point such a company will start building tunnels to make their fleet more efficient
To save time money and capital
Some 25 mile trips can be reduced to 10 miles in a straight tunnel
That's 1/3rd the energy use and 10x quicker so the taxi can go get the next fair paying customer
Lots of advantages
Airports could be one major route
A single tunnel from Heathrow branding off to perhaps 20 tunnels in zone 1/2 London
Toys make the tunnel as simple and basic as possible
Maybe not even lights as BEVs have their own
No ventilation needed as you can make the BEVs air tight or near enough
Faster quicker cheaper
Why hasn't anyone done this?
Well until recently battery transport didn't exist
Let's say the model 3 is the first true long range BEV at an okay price built in large numbers so it's only since 2019
It undercuts trains and tube carriages being almost half the price per seat
A model 3 long edition with 10 seats over 5 lines would be cheaper still per seat
And much less maintenance of a tunnel which is significantly less complex
I worry that this country is too wed to 'public transport' as being trains and buses and 'egalitarian' so we are still working to build updated Victorian infrastructure rather than looking at what tech will soon allow us to do.
Taxis are for posh people not the working class and so are not 'public transport' even if actually new technology means individual autonomous vehicles making door to door journeys will become cost, time and environmentally efficient compared to mass transport.I think....0 -
I worry that this country is too wed to 'public transport' as being trains and buses and 'egalitarian' so we are still working to build updated Victorian infrastructure rather than looking at what tech will soon allow us to do.
Taxis are for posh people not the working class and so are not 'public transport' even if actually new technology means individual autonomous vehicles making door to door journeys will become cost, time and environmentally efficient compared to mass transport.
I think it's more to do with control and power
The trains and buses love isn't for the benefit of the public
They are for the benefit of unions to justify their own existence
A robo taxi isn't going to pay union subscriptions nor does it have votes in elections
Musk's idea of BEV tunnels is brilliant in two ways
1: Just makes sense: A tunnel 1/10th as big will cost 1/10th as much and all the technology can be in the car keeping costs down as cars are built by the millions. Already a model 3 is half the price of a train carriage per seat. The tunnel itself can be basic no rail no electrification needed and the stations can be simple existing car parks or existing underground structures like shopping centers
2: A way to create demand for BEVs
Simple truth is ICE will be cheaper than BEVs for a long time
And new BEVs can't compete with the existing stock
So to electrify mileage quicker you need robo EVs which can be cheaper than even using existing second hand cars
Even HS2 it makes no sense given BEVs work today
Why not have it as a simple motorway dedicated to high speed EVs?
100mph EV can do London to Birmingham in 1h and just supercharge both sides
You don't even need a train timetable
Each time the car is full of 6 passangers away it goes
If there are only 10 passangers send two cars rather than a train fit for 1000 people carrying just 1% capacity
Per seat cost is already half and will fall further
Energy efficiency will be very high because no need for big expensive bulky stations
A station would just be a car park where the BEVs pull into and drop off and pick up customers
And you can allow private owned BEVs with self drive or dedicated line drive to also use this road at a small toll fee.
There can also be MANY more stations (small car parks) along the way soang more people can benefit from such a line
Oh and of course the per mile cost would be much less for obvious reasons but also for non obvious reasons
Trains like steady flat straight lines this adds cost if you have to dig in or fill up
Cars have much more power per weight and can go up and down hills
So a HS2 in the form of a simple 4 car wide motorway (2 each direction) can avoid homes and towns more easily and perhaps even integrate into the existing motorway network. Eg build most of it right beside the existing M1 motorway0 -
Comedy Gold.
Replace a tube train that can carry an average of 240 people with an electric car that can carry 4 or 5 people (though we all know that cars/taxis usually carry just one or two people). Massive traffic jam occurs with hundreds of thousands of electric cars stuck in tunnels
Re-use the existing tube tunnels but drill more tunnels to link the original tube lines together and to replace the existing lifts and escalators with roadways for the electric cars to get into and out of the tunnels.
One BEV breaks down in a tunnel and all traffic stops in that tunnel. A terrorist fills his car with explosives and destroys a tunnel (much more explosive can be fitted into a car than a backpack). A car sets on fire, blocks the tunnel and fills it with noxious fumes. Tunnel is filled with motorists running here and there in panic (if they can actually get out of their cars in these tiny tunnels), many are killed due to smoke inhalation or crushed in the stampede.
So back to reality....
The Boring company is actually trying to build hyper links between major cities where the tunnel holds a vacuum and a pod travels with zero friction (from airi and the ground as it is probably a maglev type) at super speeds. The pods could be similar to the channel tunnel trains that carry cars, trucks and people.
A much more sensible proposition than tunnels under a city filled with individual cars driving about.
I must say though, this easily surpasses your nuclear powered showers, baths and central heating idea in its bonkeryness! :rotfl:
However, you have achieved your purpose of disrupting the board and filling it with nonsense rather than discussions on renewables. So kudos to you there.5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.0 -
One reason why we need people like Musk is that rather than just looking for the safe incremental gain he is willing to ask the big 'what if we tried this' questions and invest the intellectual input to investigate the real economics - how often would a vehicle break down or catch fire, what mitigations could be put in place? How could we do 'stations/interchanges' for single pods without the entire line having to stop?
Sure it may not work out but just as it is easy for GA to build a straw man model and for P-O-S to knock it down, it takes tens or hundreds of man days of expert analysis and possibly experimentation to actually determine whether a new approach might work. Edison didn't spend his energy building better and better gas lamps....I think....0 -
pile-o-stone wrote: »Comedy Gold.
Replace a tube train that can carry an average of 240 people with an electric car that can carry 4 or 5 people (though we all know that cars/taxis usually carry just one or two people). Massive traffic jam occurs with hundreds of thousands of electric cars stuck in tunnels
Re-use the existing tube tunnels but drill more tunnels to link the original tube lines together and to replace the existing lifts and escalators with roadways for the electric cars to get into and out of the tunnels.
One BEV breaks down in a tunnel and all traffic stops in that tunnel. A terrorist fills his car with explosives and destroys a tunnel (much more explosive can be fitted into a car than a backpack). A car sets on fire, blocks the tunnel and fills it with noxious fumes. Tunnel is filled with motorists running here and there in panic (if they can actually get out of their cars in these tiny tunnels), many are killed due to smoke inhalation or crushed in the stampede.
So back to reality....
The Boring company is actually trying to build hyper links between major cities where the tunnel holds a vacuum and a pod travels with zero friction (from airi and the ground as it is probably a maglev type) at super speeds. The pods could be similar to the channel tunnel trains that carry cars, trucks and people.
A much more sensible proposition than tunnels under a city filled with individual cars driving about.
I must say though, this easily surpasses your nuclear powered showers, baths and central heating idea in its bonkeryness! :rotfl:
However, you have achieved your purpose of disrupting the board and filling it with nonsense rather than discussions on renewables. So kudos to you there.
Hey stalker , I missed you
It's been five mins since you last stalked me
I was getting worried you'd given up
Yes I didn't think of the terrorists or a broken down EV clogging up a tunnel
Good thing terrorists are nice enough to not do anything on trains and good thing trains never break down because those would be easy ways to dismiss you so it's good that they can't ever happen
What would I do without you!!
:kisses3:0
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