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  • FIRST POST
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    • 184Posts
    • 224Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Deprivation of assets
    • #1
    • 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    Deprivation of assets 18th May 19 at 2:11 PM
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.


    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?


    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me. Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
Page 3
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:35 AM
    • 712 Posts
    • 1,430 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    A common route is that people end up in hospital after a fall and then will not be allowed back because they are not safe.

    You donít have to leave it for heirs (I donít agree with that).
    Youíre allowed £14k for your ongoing costs, travel, funeral etc. And £25 per week for soap/clothes/hairdo/outings.

    A private business will not take you on.
    Itís not the council refusing it, its the private business wonít take you on as you will run out of money and theyíll be stuck with you and canít just throw you out on the street I.e. youíre a liability to them.
    Originally posted by lisyloo

    Iím not talking about leaving your house/flat though iím talking about having to move from the care home you chose (and can still afford to pay for) to one you didnít choose.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 19th May 19, 11:37 AM
    • 4,463 Posts
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    bouicca21
    In my somewhat limited experience the cost of care is such that that final 26k would be eaten up very quickly, even just as top up. I pin my own hopes on a. keeping my marbles b. Suicide and if that fails c. Hoping that the stats are right - they say residential care average is only 2 years, so with luck there will be enough money for somewhere nice.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:37 AM
    • 712 Posts
    • 1,430 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    Sorry I want totally clear.
    You are not denied it by the council.
    You will be denied it by private businesses who wonít take you on.

    You need a source if funds that will last the rest of your life
    E.g. a family member acts as guarantor.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    A private pension lasts the rest of your life but apparently you arenít allowed to use it to pay to stay in your chosen care home!
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:37 AM
    • 24,755 Posts
    • 13,119 Thanks
    lisyloo
    If you have a house worth, say, £300,000 (which is not that unusual with the way house prices have gone crazy) and you pick a care home with fees of even £1500 a week, which is quite high I think, then your house capital alone will pay for 200 weeks, nearly 4 years, without even taking into consideration any other savings or private pensions.

    If it was me or someone else I cared about I wouldnít compromise based on the chances of living longer than the cash would last!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    In your situation Iíd consider an annuity.
    Pay a lump sum in return for an insurance that pays the fees until you die.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:43 AM
    • 24,755 Posts
    • 13,119 Thanks
    lisyloo
    Iím not talking about leaving your house/flat though iím talking about having to move from the care home you chose (and can still afford to pay for) to one you didnít choose.
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    If you are expecting tax payer help, then youíll have to move somewhere the taxpayer is prepared to fund

    OR

    Provide a top up from someone who agrees to pay it for as long as necessary.

    Your £23.5k (or whatever the threshold is) is not enough to pay for your care as long as necessary, so the care home will not agree to it.

    If you are already in the home when this occurs I do not know at what point they kick you out.
    But if you were at the point of entry they will not accept £23.5k as a sufficient lump sum and will not take you on. The private home doesnít want the liability, the local authority doesnít want the liability.

    Clearly being there already is different to entering and Iíll be honest and say I donít know at what point they kick you out if you are already there but for entry itís an insufficient level of funds.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:48 AM
    • 24,755 Posts
    • 13,119 Thanks
    lisyloo
    A private pension lasts the rest of your life but apparently you aren’t allowed to use it to pay to stay in your chosen care home!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    If you have a private pension that allows you to stay in a home of your choice then you can do so.

    But if you have say £200 per week private income you can NOT use that £200 per week for a luxury upgrade.

    If the basic care home is £500, then you pay £200 and the local authority pays £300.

    You can NOT use it to top up to a £700 luxury care home and expect the tax payer to pay £500.

    The tax payer will not pay for luxury.
    LA are really hard pushed with increasing levels of elderly and austerity imposed upon them.

    Are YOU prepared to pay higher tax levels?

    So no you cannot get luxury and choice if you want tax payer funding.

    If you don’t require tax payer funding you can have exactly what you want.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 19-05-2019 at 11:51 AM.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 11:58 AM
    • 31,184 Posts
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    Mojisola
    But you are denied the right to pay top up fees from your own funds. I presume this is the case even with a private pension income that could cover it?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Once the council starts funding your place in a care home, you won't have access to that private pension - you have to pay all your income to the council apart from the set pocket money.

    The council is obliged to recoup as much of the money as they can that they are spending on your care home.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:58 AM
    • 712 Posts
    • 1,430 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    If you have a private pension that allows you to stay in a home of your choice then you can do so.

    But if you have say £200 per week private income you can NOT use that £200 per week for a luxury upgrade.

    If the basic care home is £500, then you pay £200 and the local authority pays £300.

    You can NOT use it to top up to a £700 luxury care home and expect the tax payer to pay £500.

    The tax payer will not pay for luxury.
    LA are really hard pushed with increasing levels of elderly and austerity imposed upon them.

    Are YOU prepared to pay higher tax levels?

    So no you cannot get luxury and choice if you want tax payer funding.

    If you donít require tax payer funding you can have exactly what you want.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    But you could take £500 from the taxpayer and have a family member pay your top up of £200?
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:59 AM
    • 712 Posts
    • 1,430 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    Once the council starts funding your place in a care home, you won't have access to that private pension - you have to pay all your income to the council apart from the set pocket money.

    The council is obliged to recoup as much of the money as they can that they are spending on your care home.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    So where does thing of Ďyou canít pay your own top up feesí come in?

    I just donít get it!
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 12:00 PM
    • 31,184 Posts
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    Mojisola
    But you could take £500 from the taxpayer and have a family member pay your top up of £200?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Only if you didn't have any other income.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 19th May 19, 12:04 PM
    • 14,939 Posts
    • 17,970 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Surely, if the owners of the home were agreeing that facility (to raise the money) they knew she had sufficient assets so that was a form of assessment in itself.
    Originally posted by maman

    I guess so, but they just said "you dont have to pay straightaway we wont send a bill until 6 weeks have passed." They also had no idea what the value of the house was. And even if they did, for all they knew it had been equity released or had a mortgage on it with very little equity.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 12:11 PM
    • 19,390 Posts
    • 49,206 Thanks
    elsien
    With no family you can cut a fair few of those out straightaway.
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    I don't know why you've crossed out the court of protection stuff. If you lack capacity and don't have family then a paid service will need to apply for the financial deputyship instead.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 12:15 PM
    • 19,390 Posts
    • 49,206 Thanks
    elsien
    So where does thing of ‘you can’t pay your own top up fees’ come in?

    I just don’t get it!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    It's not care homes making that decision, it's what the law says.
    Brief summary here, including the limited circumstances in which you can pay your own top up.

    https://www.independentage.org/information/support-care/paying-for-care/care-home-top-up-fees

    It's too much of a political hot potato, given the number of people who either want to pass money onto their families, complain about the family home having to be sold, or whose families are running round trying to set up trusts or give assets away to each other so as not to have to pay for care, for any government to want to lower the amounts people can keep any further than they already are.

    It's only a few years back that there were proposals to raise the means test from £23,250 to £123,000. People are very attached to their properties and handing down an inheritance, whatever your personal opinions with regards to this.
    Last edited by elsien; 19-05-2019 at 12:28 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 1:21 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    It just seems a massive violation to me to tell them they can’t use their own money to pay for their own living costs and quality of life. Forbidding it by law? I am astonished.

    It’s not about wanting to keep it!
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 19th May 19, 1:38 PM
    • 5,993 Posts
    • 10,256 Thanks
    Gavin83
    Iím horrified!

    What else are you going to be spending that kind of money on if youíre in a care home?

    If it comes to that in my old age iíll fight that as high as it goes!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Do they assess your ability to pay this amount and for how long? As your money dwindles, do they routinely reassess your ability to fund yourself?
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    I'll answer some of the questions raised.

    Essentially it's all about the ability to pay. There are essentially two scenarios here:

    First scenario, someone is about to enter care, doesn't have a house or a lot of money, but lets say an amount close to the £26k limit. Person wants to live in a care home requiring a top up. In all honesty they won't be allowed to enter if no family can supply this. Top up fees are often not cheap, they can potentially run into hundreds a week. Given that and the contribution they'll need to make from their assets, plus losing their pension and no entitlement to AA the question will be asked how long that £26k will last. In all honesty not that long.

    The council doesn't want to end up in a position where a resident has to move half way through their stay. Elderly people don't move very well, there is a relatively high percentage risk of death due directly to the move (it was around 20% I think) and therefore they'll do what they need to in order to avoid this. This will include not placing them in an expensive home in the first place.

    And yes, there is always the risk that the family can no longer make the top up payment either but this is considered less risky. Maybe it's because they feel they can shift the blame of a potential death onto the family instead of the council being blamed, who knows. And yes, there are family who agree to a top up payment and then stop paying it after a month, expecting that the council will pay it instead. It won't happen.

    The second scenario is someone who has been self funding for a number of years, normally due to owning a house and now that money has run out and they're below the £26k threshold. In this scenario, given the previous contributions the council will often try and negotiate a lower fee, possibly at the council rate and they are sometimes successful. If a top up fee is required it can, in effect come out of the residents money and the council will ignore this due to what I said above about moving the resident being a last resort. However if that money runs out they'll still ultimately need to move.

    There are a surprising number of potential expenses for a care home resident but honestly this is a secondary issue, mostly it comes down to their ability to fund the placement for a period of time. Care home residents are generally expected to live about 2 years, if they can't fund beyond this it'll become a problem.

    I disagree with some here, it will normally be the council that'll refuse a placement based on finances. It can be the care home though, it'll depend on who arranges the placement. Care homes are mostly private businesses, they are free to refuse people if they wish. However unlike the council I don't believe care homes carry out any sort of financial assessment.

    In practice, you could argue that moving home would be detrimental to your welfare and fight to stay. You would have to pay the council everything bar the pocket money to go towards the fees.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    You could of course fight this (like you can fight anything) but it's extremely unlikely you'd win. It's detrimental to any care home residents welfare to move and if they die as a result it'll just be considered as an unfortunate incident. As I said above this is why councils are so particular about who they place where, to avoid any moves.

    There are a handful of circumstances where the council would pay a top up fee, the resident running out of money isn't one of them.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 1:44 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    Even if top up fees are £300 a week, 26 grand will last 86 weeks which is over a year and a half. For someone who has already been in care long enough to exhaust house sale proceeds and all other savings, that may well be enough if the average stay is only 2 years as was posted above.

    The pocket money allowed from the state pension should be enough for everything else, I know I wouldn’t mind sacrificing haircuts and new clothes for the ability to stay in the care home i’d chosen!
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 1:44 PM
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    Mojisola
    When my mum went into such a swanky private care home, there was no assessment at all. Othe homes may of course have different rules.
    She also had a 6 week "waiver" on paying fees immediately (they were still due) to be able to put her house on the market
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    For many people, the bulk of their capital is in the home and the council have to ignore the house value for the first 12 weeks residence when they do the financial assessment.

    This was the case for my Dad so the council paid their set amount for the first 12 weeks and I paid the rest from his funds. That money didn't have to be repaid.

    After that we had to sign a deferred payment scheme whereby the council continued to pay but put a charge on the house and that money was paid back to them when the house sold.

    If you have enough capital not to need any council help, it's entirely down to you which home you choose and how you pay for it.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th May 19, 1:47 PM
    • 6,665 Posts
    • 7,806 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    It just seems a massive violation to me to tell them they canít use their own money to pay for their own living costs and quality of life. Forbidding it by law? I am astonished.

    Itís not about wanting to keep it!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    No it is not, top up is something that can be done while the LA are funding at least part of your care costs. Savings are taken into account on how much you contribute so they are being used up as part of your contribution, you canít use them to top up as well as that would mean your saving are depleted faster and the LA would have to pay more once your funds had run out.
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 19th May 19, 1:51 PM
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    seven-day-weekend
    If you have a private pension that allows you to stay in a home of your choice then you can do so.

    But if you have say £200 per week private income you can NOT use that £200 per week for a luxury upgrade.

    If the basic care home is £500, then you pay £200 and the local authority pays £300.

    You can NOT use it to top up to a £700 luxury care home and expect the tax payer to pay £500.

    The tax payer will not pay for luxury.
    LA are really hard pushed with increasing levels of elderly and austerity imposed upon them.

    Are YOU prepared to pay higher tax levels?

    So no you cannot get luxury and choice if you want tax payer funding.

    If you donít require tax payer funding you can have exactly what you want.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    If you have sufficient income to pay for your care in a luxury home (as did one old lady I know), then you can pay for that yourself.

    However, another old lady may only have her State Pension and Attendance Allowance, so those and the LA contribution won't be enough to pay the fee the luxury home charges. Therefore she will not be able to chose that home.

    Have I understood that correctly?
    Member #10 of £2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 19th May 19, 1:56 PM
    • 32,907 Posts
    • 65,341 Thanks
    seven-day-weekend
    It just seems a massive violation to me to tell them they canít use their own money to pay for their own living costs and quality of life. Forbidding it by law? I am astonished.

    Itís not about wanting to keep it!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    They do use their own money. The fees are paid by their State Pension and any other income they may have, except for £26.50. Then if necessary, the Council pay the rest, up to a certain limit.

    If they chose a more expensive home, and do not have the funds from these sources, then relatives have to pay the top-up fee. The person in the home can't pay, say, £15 out of their £26.50 towards it.

    That's ho I understand it, someone will correct me if I am wrong.
    Member #10 of £2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
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