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    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    • 182Posts
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    Rosieandjim
    Deprivation of assets
    • #1
    • 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    Deprivation of assets 18th May 19 at 2:11 PM
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.


    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?


    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me. Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
Page 2
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 10:15 AM
    • 19,354 Posts
    • 49,125 Thanks
    elsien
    But when you get to that sorry state, going out will possibly fill you with horror. My dad hated going out on trips towards the end and would continually be asking when he was going back "home" (which was somewhere he lived 75 years previously! )
    I'm hoping if I am trending towards that I'll have enough smarts for a one way holiday to Switzerland.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe

    That can be true - my grandmother ended up scared to go out. But I'd still like to have the choice. In part, the reason she became fearful was there was so little going on that she didn't see the point of coming out of her room. It was a bad care home, but sadly the power of attorney didn't want to see the issues.

    I’m horrified!

    What else are you going to be spending that kind of money on if you’re in a care home?

    If it comes to that in my old age i’ll fight that as high as it goes!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Extra expenses - chiropodist, hairdresser, clothes (care homes aren't noted for the care they take of laundry), cigarettes, continence pads if the NHS ones either aren't prescribed and don't suit, toiletries, newspaper/anything else you want to treat yourself to, activities and trips out (where available), for one person I know, kennel fees as she won't contemplate her dogs being rehomed, your own wheelchair if you have mobility issues.
    If you're not doing much, the personal allowance is probably adequate; if you're still active it may not be.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 10:41 AM
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    onwards&upwards
    That can be true - my grandmother ended up scared to go out. But I'd still like to have the choice. In part, the reason she became fearful was there was so little going on that she didn't see the point of coming out of her room. It was a bad care home, but sadly the power of attorney didn't want to see the issues.



    Extra expenses - chiropodist, hairdresser, clothes (care homes aren't noted for the care they take of laundry), cigarettes, continence pads if the NHS ones either aren't prescribed and don't suit, toiletries, newspaper/anything else you want to treat yourself to, activities and trips out (where available), for one person I know, kennel fees as she won't contemplate her dogs being rehomed, your own wheelchair if you have mobility issues.
    If you're not doing much, the personal allowance is probably adequate; if you're still active it may not be.
    Originally posted by elsien
    £26,000 pays for a lot of haircuts and soap.

    The state pension alone could cover most of that, itís a poor excuse for denying people the right to spend their money on staying in what has become their home,
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 10:46 AM
    • 31,152 Posts
    • 79,902 Thanks
    Mojisola
    £26,000 pays for a lot of haircuts and soap.

    The state pension alone could cover most of that, itís a poor excuse for denying people the right to spend their money on staying in what has become their home,
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    You don't get to keep your SP if you are council funded - just weekly pocket money.

    If you have between £23,250 and £14,250, you still have to contribute towards the fees from your savings.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 10:49 AM
    • 661 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    You don't get to keep your SP if you are council funded - just weekly pocket money.

    If you have between £23,250 and £14,250, you still have to contribute towards the fees from your savings.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    So at what point are you forced to move? If itís when you literally donít have enough money to afford staying where you are then that is understandable, but posters were giving the impression youíd be forced to leave cash sitting in the bank for non existent heirs while being evicted out of your chosen care home into a council one!
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th May 19, 10:56 AM
    • 6,649 Posts
    • 7,774 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    £26,000 pays for a lot of haircuts and soap.

    The state pension alone could cover most of that, itís a poor excuse for denying people the right to spend their money on staying in what has become their home,
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Nobody is denied the right to stay in their own home, it is only when their needs cannot be met there that you have to move. Some can stay longer because they have family to help them stay put or can afford to pay a live in career but you canít expect more than a few hours home care paid for by the LA, after that residential care is the cheaper and almost certainly safer option.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 11:05 AM
    • 31,152 Posts
    • 79,902 Thanks
    Mojisola
    So at what point are you forced to move? If itís when you literally donít have enough money to afford staying where you are then that is understandable, but posters were giving the impression youíd be forced to leave cash sitting in the bank for non existent heirs while being evicted out of your chosen care home into a council one!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    If you self-fund in a home that charges more than the council allowance and your capital reduces to £23,250 and no-one is able to pay the top-up fee, the council may try to force you to move to a cheaper home.

    In practice, you could argue that moving home would be detrimental to your welfare and fight to stay. You would have to pay the council everything bar the pocket money to go towards the fees.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 19th May 19, 11:09 AM
    • 2,054 Posts
    • 3,507 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    What if you started out with a sizeable chunk of cash and got yourself a place in a £1500 a week swanky 5* home.

    Do they assess your ability to pay this amount and for how long? As your money dwindles, do they routinely reassess your ability to fund yourself?

    At some point it will, in their eyes, become unaffordable, unsustainable.

    Will they then ask (force) you to leave at that point??
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 11:16 AM
    • 19,354 Posts
    • 49,125 Thanks
    elsien
    What if you started out with a sizeable chunk of cash and got yourself a place in a £1500 a week swanky 5* home.

    Do they assess your ability to pay this amount and for how long? As your money dwindles, do they routinely reassess your ability to fund yourself?

    At some point it will, in their eyes, become unaffordable, unsustainable.

    Will they then ask (force) you to leave at that point??
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    It can be negotiable, depending on how much over the local authority rate the care home is. It can be possible for the care home to reduce the fees, the LA to increase the top-up and for the weekly rate to meet somewhere in the middle. And depending on the individual circumstances there may be a case for it being very detrimental to their wellbeing to be moved.
    But as there are people who put relatives in top of the range care homes knowing that the money will only last a few months, and then they expect the tab to be picked up because "it wouldn't be fair to move granny now she's settled" quite simply that isn't affordable. So more often that not, then yes people do have to move at that point. The expectation is that the person or their power of attorney would be taking those factors into consideration as they go along. Not just cross their fingers and hope that funding will continue. because chances are that it won't.
    People also have to move for other reasons, such as their health needs changing and the care home no longer being able to meet their needs if for example they need a higher level of nursing care. A home for life isn't really a thing for any of us, unless we're lucky and our circumstances don't dramatically change.
    Last edited by elsien; 19-05-2019 at 11:20 AM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 19th May 19, 11:17 AM
    • 14,902 Posts
    • 17,914 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    When my mum went into such a swanky private care home, there was no assessment at all. Othe homes may of course have different rules.
    She also had a 6 week "waiver" on paying fees immediately (they were still due) to be able to put her house on the market or otherwise raise funds if she didn't immediately have the money to hand (I suppose some might have had to sell investments)
    As she died after about 4 weeks I never got to see what would happen if the money ran out, as it was a private run home I'm sure she would have been moved into a cheaper council one and I woudl have expected no less.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th May 19, 11:19 AM
    • 6,649 Posts
    • 7,774 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    So at what point are you forced to move? If itís when you literally donít have enough money to afford staying where you are then that is understandable, but posters were giving the impression youíd be forced to leave cash sitting in the bank for non existent heirs while being evicted out of your chosen care home into a council one!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    This will to a certain extent be covered in a financial assessment at the point of first needing residential care. A lot of self funders will only have funds to last a short time, so placement should ideally be in a LA approved home that takes both private and LA funded residents so a traumatic 2nd move can be avoided.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:21 AM
    • 661 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    Nobody is denied the right to stay in their own home, it is only when their needs cannot be met there that you have to move. Some can stay longer because they have family to help them stay put or can afford to pay a live in career but you canít expect more than a few hours home care paid for by the LA, after that residential care is the cheaper and almost certainly safer option.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    I said Ďwhat has become their homeí meaning the care home they chose to move to and have been paying for perhaps for years.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:22 AM
    • 24,711 Posts
    • 13,090 Thanks
    lisyloo
    What else are you going to be spending that kind of money on if youíre in a care home?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Clothing (would say thatís essential)
    Toiletries (essential)
    Spectacles (essential)
    Travel/shopping (may be wheelchair taxi)
    Books/cds
    Xmas/birthday gifts for family
    Haircuts (a lot of ladies have weekly shampoo and set)
    Chiropodist (if you canít reach your toenail)
    Manicures of the pamper variety

    This is all based on actual experience

    Also thatís the top threshold above which you pay ALL fees.
    There is a lower one below which you pay none.
    In the middle you contribute, so you still contribute above £14k

    Oh and also (from real experience)

    Life insurance for funeral
    Court of protection annual fees (if you have a deputy)
    Court of protection insurance

    The last two are for people who didnít agree a power of attorney in advance,

    Hope that helps
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:24 AM
    • 24,711 Posts
    • 13,090 Thanks
    lisyloo
    If you have no family a basic funeral is fine, and you certainly donít need to leave an inheritance!

    I think itís fine to say the last 26k canít be taken from you but itís ridiculous and cruel to stop someone of sound mind spending their own money on their own quality of life!

    So in theory someone who is perfectly comfortable and happy where they are, maybe even good friends with other residents, could be forced to uproot to somewhere worse even though it wouldnít save the council any money, just to stop them spending their own?

    How has nobody taken this to court yet!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Court wonít help.
    A private home will not take you if your funds are limited.
    £26K is limited is terms of care fees.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:26 AM
    • 24,711 Posts
    • 13,090 Thanks
    lisyloo
    o t
    £26,000 pays for a lot of haircuts and soap.

    The state pension alone could cover most of that, itís a poor excuse for denying people the right to spend their money on staying in what has become their home,
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    No one is denied it.
    But you wonít force a private business to take you if your funds are limited.
    They donít want to be stuck with someone if you run out of money.
    Private homes are entitled not take you if you canít prove you wonít run out of money.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:29 AM
    • 661 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    This will to a certain extent be covered in a financial assessment at the point of first needing residential care. A lot of self funders will only have funds to last a short time, so placement should ideally be in a LA approved home that takes both private and LA funded residents so a traumatic 2nd move can be avoided.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling

    If you have a house worth, say, £300,000 (which is not that unusual with the way house prices have gone crazy) and you pick a care home with fees of even £1500 a week, which is quite high I think, then your house capital alone will pay for 200 weeks, nearly 4 years, without even taking into consideration any other savings or private pensions.

    If it was me or someone else I cared about I wouldnít compromise based on the chances of living longer than the cash would last!
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:31 AM
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    • 1,315 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    No one is denied it.
    But you wonít force a private business to take you if your funds are limited.
    They donít want to be stuck with someone if you run out of money.
    Private homes are entitled not take you if you canít prove you wonít run out of money.
    Originally posted by lisyloo

    But you are denied the right to pay top up fees from your own funds. I presume this is the case even with a private pension income that could cover it?
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:32 AM
    • 24,711 Posts
    • 13,090 Thanks
    lisyloo
    So at what point are you forced to move? If itís when you literally donít have enough money to afford staying where you are then that is understandable, but posters were giving the impression youíd be forced to leave cash sitting in the bank for non existent heirs while being evicted out of your chosen care home into a council one!
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    A common route is that people end up in hospital after a fall and then will not be allowed back because they are not safe.

    You donít have to leave it for heirs (I donít agree with that).
    Youíre allowed £14k for your ongoing costs, travel, funeral etc. And £25 per week for soap/clothes/hairdo/outings.

    A private business will not take you on.
    Itís not the council refusing it, its the private business wonít take you on as you will run out of money and theyíll be stuck with you and canít just throw you out on the street I.e. youíre a liability to them.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 11:32 AM
    • 661 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    Clothing (would say thatís essential)
    Toiletries (essential)
    Spectacles (essential)
    Travel/shopping (may be wheelchair taxi)
    Books/cds
    Xmas/birthday gifts for family
    Haircuts (a lot of ladies have weekly shampoo and set)
    Chiropodist (if you canít reach your toenail)
    Manicures of the pamper variety

    This is all based on actual experience

    Also thatís the top threshold above which you pay ALL fees.
    There is a lower one below which you pay none.
    In the middle you contribute, so you still contribute above £14k

    Oh and also (from real experience)

    Life insurance for funeral
    Court of protection annual fees (if you have a deputy)
    Court of protection insurance


    The last two are for people who didnít agree a power of attorney in advance,

    Hope that helps
    Originally posted by lisyloo

    With no family you can cut a fair few of those out straightaway.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 11:34 AM
    • 24,711 Posts
    • 13,090 Thanks
    lisyloo
    But you are denied the right to pay top up fees from your own funds. I presume this is the case even with a private pension income that could cover it?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards

    Sorry I want totally clear.
    You are not denied it by the council.
    You will be denied it by private businesses who wonít take you on.

    You need a source if funds that will last the rest of your life
    E.g. a family member acts as guarantor.
    • maman
    • By maman 19th May 19, 11:34 AM
    • 19,942 Posts
    • 119,216 Thanks
    maman
    When my mum went into such a swanky private care home, there was no assessment at all. Othe homes may of course have different rules.
    She also had a 6 week "waiver" on paying fees immediately (they were still due) to be able to put her house on the market or otherwise raise funds if she didn't immediately have the money to hand (I suppose some might have had to sell investments)
    As she died after about 4 weeks I never got to see what would happen if the money ran out, as it was a private run home I'm sure she would have been moved into a cheaper council one and I woudl have expected no less.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe

    Surely, if the owners of the home were agreeing that facility (to raise the money) they knew she had sufficient assets so that was a form of assessment in itself.
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