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  • FIRST POST
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    • 182Posts
    • 219Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Deprivation of assets
    • #1
    • 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    Deprivation of assets 18th May 19 at 2:11 PM
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.


    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?


    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me. Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
Page 1
    • PasturesNew
    • By PasturesNew 18th May 19, 2:17 PM
    • 66,464 Posts
    • 390,594 Thanks
    PasturesNew
    • #2
    • 18th May 19, 2:17 PM
    • #2
    • 18th May 19, 2:17 PM
    ...
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    I think you've misunderstood the care situation/costs.

    If somebody has no money and are funded the Council chooses the care home. This is because they have a "block booking" arrangement at a big list of care homes, where they pay a fixed fee. Somebody will be placed in "any home on that list that has a vacancy".

    If you choose which home your relative goes into they'll pay the sum to the care home they'd have paid if they had a block booking with them - and then it's up to "somebody else" to pay the difference between what the (private) home charges and what the Council funding contributes. It might be that the person going into the care home has the money, or relatives might choose to pay the top ups.

    Somebody with no money cannot choose to go into a home costing more, only a home on the "approved list". The Council will not put them in a home where it costs more as they are unable to do that.

    Are you choosing a different care home to the one the Council are proposing?
    • Catswhiska
    • By Catswhiska 18th May 19, 2:31 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Catswhiska
    • #3
    • 18th May 19, 2:31 PM
    • #3
    • 18th May 19, 2:31 PM
    Nobody can be forced to pay Top Up Fees for a relative. Itís a matter of choice in the end
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 18th May 19, 4:12 PM
    • 5,989 Posts
    • 10,248 Thanks
    Gavin83
    • #4
    • 18th May 19, 4:12 PM
    • #4
    • 18th May 19, 4:12 PM
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.


    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?


    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me. Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    How old are you? If you aren't likely to need care for a while it really doesn't matter. It's also worth noting that most elderly people still don't need to go into a care home. A few years ago it was around 5%, I doubt it's gone up that much.

    Also you don't have to pay towards your relatives care. PasturesNew did a good job of explaining it so I won't go over it again.

    It might be that the person going into the care home has the money, or relatives might choose to pay the top ups.
    Originally posted by PasturesNew
    Actually the person going into care can't pay their own top up fees, it has to come from elsewhere.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 18th May 19, 7:23 PM
    • 6,705 Posts
    • 5,032 Thanks
    sheramber
    • #5
    • 18th May 19, 7:23 PM
    • #5
    • 18th May 19, 7:23 PM
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 18th May 19, 7:37 PM
    • 665 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    • #6
    • 18th May 19, 7:37 PM
    • #6
    • 18th May 19, 7:37 PM
    Actually the person going into care can't pay their own top up fees, it has to come from elsewhere.
    Originally posted by Gavin83
    Thatís crazy! What if you have plenty of money but no family?
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 18th May 19, 7:44 PM
    • 2,054 Posts
    • 3,507 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    • #7
    • 18th May 19, 7:44 PM
    • #7
    • 18th May 19, 7:44 PM
    I think you'd have to pay all your own private care fees, until you're down to your last £26k or so...then if you have no one else who agrees or able to pay, you get shoved somewhere cheaper by the local authority!!!
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 18th May 19, 8:10 PM
    • 6,649 Posts
    • 7,775 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    • #8
    • 18th May 19, 8:10 PM
    • #8
    • 18th May 19, 8:10 PM
    Thatís crazy! What if you have plenty of money but no family?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    In which case you will be self funding all your care, so no top up required.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 18th May 19, 8:18 PM
    • 6,649 Posts
    • 7,775 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    • #9
    • 18th May 19, 8:18 PM
    • #9
    • 18th May 19, 8:18 PM
    If giving assets away risks ending up in an over my dead body care home then don’t give it away. Ideally you will have saved sufficient over the years to give some away and keep enough back for a comfortable old age.

    Self funders have one big advantage over everyone else and that is choice, something I will never be prepared to give up.
    Last edited by Keep pedalling; 18-05-2019 at 9:59 PM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 18th May 19, 8:52 PM
    • 14,902 Posts
    • 17,915 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.
    Well, "some money" covers a multitude of scenarios. Might be £5,000 or £500,000. And is that out if your last £500k or do you have £5M still left. And did you mean "money " or did you give them your house (but continue to live in it?).
    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?
    That's either a lie by the council or you misunderstood.

    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me.
    Well, if you do DYOA by paying for a care home for a third party it wouldn't matter because they can't take them back in the same way they could if, for example your gave your children a house to live in. However its a moot point since you have no obligation to pay for anyone to go into care, not even spouse..

    Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    It wouldn't matter if they were happy would it, it would be a fait accompli.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 18-05-2019 at 8:56 PM.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 18th May 19, 10:21 PM
    • 1,583 Posts
    • 960 Thanks
    fred246
    I had an elderly relative in a care home. They paid £700 a month because they had savings. The council paid £500 a month for exactly the same accomodation for people without savings. I used to come on this forum and people would say those without money would have awful care. It was a dementia home and I used to look around at the residents. None of them would have had a clue where they were or how much it cost. I always wonder how many people are unhappy in homes because they didn't have savings. They would have to be mentally well and unhappy with their care. My view is that I am going to enjoy life while I am well and I will take the risk of ending up in a lower quality home. The chance of being in a home is decreasing all the time as home carers are provided increasingly.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th May 19, 7:51 AM
    • 6,649 Posts
    • 7,775 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    I had an elderly relative in a care home. They paid £700 a month because they had savings. The council paid £500 a month for exactly the same accomodation for people without savings. I used to come on this forum and people would say those without money would have awful care. It was a dementia home and I used to look around at the residents. None of them would have had a clue where they were or how much it cost. I always wonder how many people are unhappy in homes because they didn't have savings. They would have to be mentally well and unhappy with their care. My view is that I am going to enjoy life while I am well and I will take the risk of ending up in a lower quality home. The chance of being in a home is decreasing all the time as home carers are provided increasingly.
    Originally posted by fred246
    From personal experience I know only too well that LA funded residential care will be put off as long as possible through home care visits, but in some ways that is worse than residential care. My mother really should have been in residential care 9 months to a year before she was given the go ahead by the LA panel. By then she was up to 4 visits a day, and although the staff were good the visits were brief, often late because of problems with a previous client and left here with long periods of social isolation which was really bad for her mental health.

    When she was eventually offered a place after yet another hospitalisation there were few choices, and although she was happy with where she ended up, it would have been a long way from the sort of home I would like to end up in. My step father on the other hand needed NHS funded nursing care spent his last year in a really nice place.

    In reality people with little or modest savings are not much better off than people with nothing, as even fully self funding they will be looking at the cheaper end of the market, and one of the best options, live in careers, is simply not an option.
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 19th May 19, 8:02 AM
    • 35,208 Posts
    • 41,277 Thanks
    Browntoa
    My father in law is in a home funded by council block booking . The home also accepts self funding (or top up) to get a better room , the better rooms are en suite and decorated to s better standard . The council rooms are basic but clean with a nearby toilet and bathroom .

    Apart from that it's the same carers , same facilities , same food so your actual care is not downgraded because its council funded.

    Cash gifts to family are not deprivation of assets unless excessive, wholesale transfer of property and cash to others is .
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's , Boost your income and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 8:04 AM
    • 19,354 Posts
    • 49,129 Thanks
    elsien
    I had an elderly relative in a care home. They paid £700 a month because they had savings. The council paid £500 a month for exactly the same accomodation for people without savings. I used to come on this forum and people would say those without money would have awful care. It was a dementia home and I used to look around at the residents. None of them would have had a clue where they were or how much it cost. I always wonder how many people are unhappy in homes because they didn't have savings. They would have to be mentally well and unhappy with their care. My view is that I am going to enjoy life while I am well and I will take the risk of ending up in a lower quality home. The chance of being in a home is decreasing all the time as home carers are provided increasingly.
    Originally posted by fred246

    Part of my job involves people who don't understand their situation going into care. There are some good cheaper homes. Many of the ones people who aren't self funders go to (and the ones more likely to have vacancies) have below standard CQC reports and some dubious standards of care.
    Whether people know where they are or not, the standard of care and the time that staff have to spend with them makes a huge difference. More so when you're confused and don't understand what is happening to you. The homes I've been to where I've though "yep, this one will do" are all above what the local authority will pay. Even where the staff are caring and are doing things as they should, most cheaper places have little in the way of activities and don't support residents to get out and about.
    I'd like to keep my brain active as long as possible, and the thought being confined to a care home and never going out to the community again, bar a 5 minute stroll down the road once a month, fills me with horror.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 19th May 19, 8:40 AM
    • 14,902 Posts
    • 17,915 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I'd like to keep my brain active as long as possible, and the thought being confined to a care home and never going out to the community again, bar a 5 minute stroll down the road once a month, fills me with horror.
    Originally posted by elsien
    But when you get to that sorry state, going out will possibly fill you with horror. My dad hated going out on trips towards the end and would continually be asking when he was going back "home" (which was somewhere he lived 75 years previously! )
    I'm hoping if I am trending towards that I'll have enough smarts for a one way holiday to Switzerland.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 9:45 AM
    • 665 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    I think you'd have to pay all your own private care fees, until you're down to your last £26k or so...then if you have no one else who agrees or able to pay, you get shoved somewhere cheaper by the local authority!!!
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    So you couldnít pay the top up from your last 26k?
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 9:47 AM
    • 31,155 Posts
    • 79,909 Thanks
    Mojisola
    So you couldnít pay the top up from your last 26k?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    No. ...............
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 9:49 AM
    • 665 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    No. ...............
    Originally posted by Mojisola

    Iím horrified!

    What else are you going to be spending that kind of money on if youíre in a care home?

    If it comes to that in my old age iíll fight that as high as it goes!
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 19th May 19, 9:56 AM
    • 2,054 Posts
    • 3,507 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    I think the reasoning is that you still have something left to pay for your funeral, and pass on a small inheritance.

    It doesn't play well politically to leave people having to use every last penny, so they've drawn a line in the sand.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 10:00 AM
    • 665 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    onwards&upwards
    I think the reasoning is that you still have something left to pay for your funeral, and pass on a small inheritance.

    It doesn't play well politically to leave people having to use every last penny, so they've drawn a line in the sand.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    If you have no family a basic funeral is fine, and you certainly donít need to leave an inheritance!

    I think itís fine to say the last 26k canít be taken from you but itís ridiculous and cruel to stop someone of sound mind spending their own money on their own quality of life!

    So in theory someone who is perfectly comfortable and happy where they are, maybe even good friends with other residents, could be forced to uproot to somewhere worse even though it wouldnít save the council any money, just to stop them spending their own?

    How has nobody taken this to court yet!
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