Fun & Games - PIP
Comments
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I agree with the above advice you're getting. Let's make this simple and I'll give my direct advice.rockingbilly wrote: »Well at the end of the day whether they chose to cause delays or not, it is entirely down to the DWP to get their fingers out as without the documentation I can't prepare or even discuss with Welfare Rights anything if I have no copies of the claim form or the evidence I sent in. They are also going to hold things up as well if they take too long in sending the copied ESA & DLA files that were requested in early January when the PIP claim started.
Yes the refusal letter says that a whole host of things the claim form said they say that I don't have any issues with them.
I presume you've requested copies of the evidence they've used.. if not then do so first thing Monday stressing the urgency and requirement for that to include copy of your 'How your disability affects you' form as you didn't keep a copy. Also request copies of your evidence as it seems you sent originals in... a deeply unfortunate event if true. Never send in original evidence to them unless specifically requested and also have copy of anything you send to them. The decision letter you have received sounds like it is as good as you will get in explaining the decision - it documents the descriptors they've chosen and why. You need to challenge those conclusions if you disagree with them when asking for reconsideration. Also you keep raising that you gave permissions for them to look at other claims for evidence... ESA is probably irrelevant and I suspect it likely they have not really used any documents from your ESA or DLA claims... so don't be expecting them to supply copies of such stuff as they likely never used. It seems most likely what you have supplied in applying for PIP has hung you.
If you can arrange for a welfare rights or similar consultation within next 2 weeks try to do that otherwise forget it for now otherwise you'll run risk of running out of time.
Look over the 12 activities and determine which descriptors you think should apply to you. If you consider you would score a total of notably less than 8 points for both Daily Living and Mobility I would seriously consider quitting any further attempts to get PIP - if you think you don't qualify then convincing the DWP or a tribunal is surely going to be tough.
Hound the DWP for your evidence copies until either they arrive or you approach running out of time. If that time approaches (i.e. your month is running out) call them and indicate you are making a mandatory reconsideration but your written submission will only be able to follow once you have copies of the evidence used in your claim and can respond to it. Insist they lodge a mandatory reconsideration but to hold off carrying it out until you later submit a written document to detail the specific reasons why.
Make written reconsideration request with or without support from Welfare Rights or the like, addressing the activities relevant to you and which descriptors apply and why... detail any supporting evidence and correct any errors in existing evidence that is unhelpful. Indicate what award of PIP you should get following summation of the descriptor points you argue apply.
Then wait for decision... if you are unable to get timely support from WR or the like then perhaps try to arrange something on the expectation you will be making appeal in due course. Unfortunately it is hard to know how long the MR could take... for me over 2 months is probably at the longer end of the spectrum.
Make a record of all you do. But I really think you need to take control of these matters... do not sit in expectation DWP or WR or the like will come to your rescue. But for goodness sake figure out if in theory you should get PIP... otherwise we could all be wasting our time offering advice that is substantially inappropriate or poor.
Others may advise slightly different tactics.... but this is how I would approach things given my approximation of your circumstances."Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack0 -
As Neil has said you don't need anybody at DWP to do anything. You need to decide which of the descriptors you think that your disabilities align with, unless I'm mistaken you yourself have previously assessed yourself to score zero points too, and then you need to outline why you disagree with the letter already sent to you by the DWP.
You have everything you need to ask for the mandatory reconsideration, if you want to ask for one you just need to do that.
I actually did try to do that at the start. The descriptors seem very closely focused. But I'll give it a go again.
I've transcribed part of the letter here which does seem to prove that the PIP2 that was filled in by the Jobcentre was not up to the mark needed.
"The questionnaire indicates a low level of disability overall, the information is consistent, medically reasonable and there is nothing to suggest under-reporting "
Now the way I am looking at it is that I know what is wrong with me, I have professionals that have not only confirmed that in writing but gone one step further and have identified how these difficulties are affecting my life - the physical fact of poor mobility, the ability to take in new information, the ability to understand even any basic new task etc etc etc .
but the claim form has not done me any favours with how it has all been put together (which is exactly why I needed the help to fill it in in the first place).
OK I will try and identify what descriptors fit exactly my difficulties and send the letter to the DWP asking for a MR. Would the DWP be a bit suspicious if when I get the copy PIP2 I try to pull apart what was written and substitute it to fit the descriptors more?0 -
rockingbilly wrote: »I actually did try to do that at the start. The descriptors seem very closely focused. But I'll give it a go again.
I've transcribed part of the letter here which does seem to prove that the PIP2 that was filled in by the Jobcentre was not up to the mark needed.
"The questionnaire indicates a low level of disability overall, the information is consistent, medically reasonable and there is nothing to suggest under-reporting "
Now the way I am looking at it is that I know what is wrong with me, I have professionals that have not only confirmed that in writing but gone one step further and have identified how these difficulties are affecting my life - the physical fact of poor mobility, the ability to take in new information, the ability to understand even any basic new task etc etc etc .
but the claim form has not done me any favours with how it has all been put together (which is exactly why I needed the help to fill it in in the first place).
OK I will try and identify what descriptors fit exactly my difficulties and send the letter to the DWP asking for a MR. Would the DWP be a bit suspicious if when I get the copy PIP2 I try to pull apart what was written and substitute it to fit the descriptors more?
Oh my goodness me
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:0 -
Muttleythefrog wrote: »I agree with the above advice you're getting. Let's make this simple and I'll give my direct advice.
I presume you've requested copies of the evidence they've used.. if not then do so first thing Monday stressing the urgency and requirement for that to include copy of your 'How your disability affects you' form as you didn't keep a copy. Also request copies of your evidence as it seems you sent originals in... a deeply unfortunate event if true. Never send in original evidence to them unless specifically requested and also have copy of anything you send to them. The decision letter you have received sounds like it is as good as you will get in explaining the decision - it documents the descriptors they've chosen and why. You need to challenge those conclusions if you disagree with them when asking for reconsideration. Also you keep raising that you gave permissions for them to look at other claims for evidence... ESA is probably irrelevant and I suspect it likely they have not really used any documents from your ESA or DLA claims... so don't be expecting them to supply copies of such stuff as they likely never used. It seems most likely what you have supplied in applying for PIP has hung you.
If you can arrange for a welfare rights or similar consultation within next 2 weeks try to do that otherwise forget it for now otherwise you'll run risk of running out of time.
Look over the 12 activities and determine which descriptors you think should apply to you. If you consider you would score a total of notably less than 8 points for both Daily Living and Mobility I would seriously consider quitting any further attempts to get PIP - if you think you don't qualify then convincing the DWP or a tribunal is surely going to be tough.
Hound the DWP for your evidence copies until either they arrive or you approach running out of time. If that time approaches (i.e. your month is running out) call them and indicate you are making a mandatory reconsideration but your written submission will only be able to follow once you have copies of the evidence used in your claim and can respond to it. Insist they lodge a mandatory reconsideration but to hold off carrying it out until you later submit a written document to detail the specific reasons why.
Make written reconsideration request with or without support from Welfare Rights or the like, addressing the activities relevant to you and which descriptors apply and why... detail any supporting evidence and correct any errors in existing evidence that is unhelpful. Indicate what award of PIP you should get following summation of the descriptor points you argue apply.
Then wait for decision... if you are unable to get timely support from WR or the like then perhaps try to arrange something on the expectation you will be making appeal in due course. Unfortunately it is hard to know how long the MR could take... for me over 2 months is probably at the longer end of the spectrum.
Make a record of all you do. But I really think you need to take control of these matters... do not sit in expectation DWP or WR or the like will come to your rescue. But for goodness sake figure out if in theory you should get PIP... otherwise we could all be wasting our time offering advice that is substantially inappropriate or poor.
Others may advise slightly different tactics.... but this is how I would approach things given my approximation of your circumstances.
Yes I have asked the DWP for all of that, some of it as far back as the first couple of weeks in January.
Am I right in thinking that with what appears to be a poorly constructed claim form even though the evidence is good it is not only going to be like pushing water uphill but also it will look like I am trying to manipulate what was put on the PIP2 to suit it better to give me more of a chance? Like for example ' I have some really good days when I don't have much difficulty walking. Other days are extremely poor' What should have been written, "I am never in a position to walk more than 10 metres without having to stop because of the severe damage to my lower spine (which is clearly explained in great detail in the attached reports from the Pain Clinic and my Consultant in the Spinal Injuries dept of the hospital). Although on occasion I can walk for longer, but no more than 50 metres, but that all depends on how much medication I have taken and when. Walking on those days for longer then makes it impossible to make the return journey. I can sometimes push myself but I suffer for it afterwards"
OK I will go through the descriptors, push the DWP for the info and try to put together a letter for the MR.
Thanks once again for the advice. Without someone showing me the way I feel completely lost.0 -
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Suspicious who knows... but they've every right to challenge things you now claim to be true if you've previously said differently. If you're adding to information then perhaps not. But if you start attacking your own evidence then you're going to probably have some difficulties... I imagine you'd have to give compelling reasons why you've submitted inaccurate details of your disabilities.rockingbilly wrote: »I actually did try to do that at the start. The descriptors seem very closely focused. But I'll give it a go again.
I've transcribed part of the letter here which does seem to prove that the PIP2 that was filled in by the Jobcentre was not up to the mark needed.
"The questionnaire indicates a low level of disability overall, the information is consistent, medically reasonable and there is nothing to suggest under-reporting "
Now the way I am looking at it is that I know what is wrong with me, I have professionals that have not only confirmed that in writing but gone one step further and have identified how these difficulties are affecting my life - the physical fact of poor mobility, the ability to take in new information, the ability to understand even any basic new task etc etc etc .
but the claim form has not done me any favours with how it has all been put together (which is exactly why I needed the help to fill it in in the first place).
OK I will try and identify what descriptors fit exactly my difficulties and send the letter to the DWP asking for a MR. Would the DWP be a bit suspicious if when I get the copy PIP2 I try to pull apart what was written and substitute it to fit the descriptors more?
Remember in terms of the descriptors.... you should not consider yourself able to perform a task if you cannot do so safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period.
I do think you face an uphill battle.. not an impossible one... but I think first you have to establish you think you qualify for PIP."Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack0 -
I think the PIP2 form is a red herring. You have 30 days from the date of the letter (not the date you received it) to get the MR in so you could be a a week in, already. If you hang around, prevaricating as you do, waiting for a copy of a form which may never come then you are losing valuable time. In any case I don't think the PIP2 is necessary here.
Concentrate on what they have said about how your condition and how it effects you match (or don't match) the descriptors. That's how we deal with MRs and we do a lot of them. If there is a copy of the form that is fine but quite often clients don't have them
In your other thread I gave you links to information on MRs and a pro forma that helps. In you case you missed it here they are again
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/mandatory-reconsideration/
https://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178163/mandatory-reconsideration-request.pdf
For goodness sake do something - or decide ( as Muttley says amongst a lot of other sensible stuff) that you don't qualify. Quite frankly the past is the past and your focus should be on getting the MR in - not grumbling on about what happened in January whatever
You've had a lot of positive advice here - put up or shut up
And, as was said earlier, the majority of MRs fail (certainly ones with nil points) so the great likelihood is that you will end up at appeal. So while you need to make the MR as good as possible the key thing is to get it in - as it is a part of a process you have to go through to get to a tribunal
Oh and as an ETA. Let's be not putting all the blame on the DWP guy who helped you with the form. I know from experience that form completion is only as good as the information you are getting from the client. Much of the skill in dealing with clients for PIP, ESA, DLA etc is being able to coax out quite delicate and vital snippets that add to the overall picture - and then getting them down on the form. Experience helps with that - plus the time to build up a rapport with the person you are helping.
Quite honestly, if you come across in person as you do on paper I'm guessing you aren't the easiest individual to get this sort of information out of. He can only put down what you tell him - and, in the end, you know, it was you who signed the form!0 -
Personally I don't think you give a flying fig about whether you get an award on not.
Like good old Mr Meldrew you just need something to moan about to make life worth living. Once this little drama has played out you will be looking for the next thing.0 -
Rockingbilly
What I really don't understand is that in previous posts you use your own income to fund the kind of car you like to drive as Motability don't as it goes above there threshold and You say again in previous posts that you don't need the money dla/pip provides as you give it to your grand children a bit like the post saying you have to put your Motability scooter on the back seats then saying you don't have a scooter,so I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or are you an out and out storey teller,but I will say one thing is that I would not give myself all the so called grief your claiming to have about trying to claim a disability benefit when in fact you don't really need it do you and more to the point don't even qualify for it.0 -
Muttleythefrog wrote: »Suspicious who knows... but they've every right to challenge things you now claim to be true if you've previously said differently. If you're adding to information then perhaps not. But if you start attacking your own evidence then you're going to probably have some difficulties... I imagine you'd have to give compelling reasons why you've submitted inaccurate details of your disabilities.
Remember in terms of the descriptors.... you should not consider yourself able to perform a task if you cannot do so safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period.
I do think you face an uphill battle.. not an impossible one... but I think first you have to establish you think you qualify for PIP.
Thanks, I only mention that as I have a rather nasty feeling, given the quality of the evidence sent to the DWP, that I am going to have to 'attack my own initial evidence' as per the PIP2.
Unless I am wrong, and I hope that I am, the Jobcentre guy may well have put HIS interpretation down on the form based on what I said to him. In other words the content of the PIP2 may well be contradictory to the documentary evidence. that was not disclosed to him
The accuracy of what is on the PIP2 is down to how they (the JC) filled it out. Yes I signed it in good faith and under pressure but what the complete contents are I have no idea.
I have had a look at the descriptors this morning and using what you say about not fixating on the strict wording, I calculate that there should be enough points to award me 'enhanced' for both care and mobility. For example bathing, I have an electric bath riser supplied by Social Services that allows me to drop into the water and rise again. I still need help to get onto the chair and off. I need help to wash my hair, back and below my waist along with needing help to dry those parts as well.
I have a raised toilet seat and frame also supplied by Social Services. Whilst this helps me to clean myself, I still need help to get off the toilet.
In fact Social Services, after a review of my difficulties and a financial assessment in Nov 2016, suggested that I should have carers come in a couple of times a day for which they would pay for. I refused that offer as I saw it as the last straw of losing what independence I have left.
Anyhow I will get letters posted on Monday to the DWP setting out exactly what you have previously suggested and will take it from there.
Thanks once again0
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