ECP Country Park

shaleman · 7 January 2018 at 10:46PM

Hi, I received a parking charge notice from ECP for a Country Park in Kent, followed by a Notice to Keeper.
I have read the newbie instructions and appealed to ECP using the template. The appeal was rejected and I now wish to submit my appeal to POPLA.
Can I rely upon the following argument that I have seen quoted on another thread
No right to claim under POFA
As Euro Car Parks already knows, the car park at Country Park is owned and provided by Kent County Council, a "traffic authority" as defined under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of POFA; this car park is therefore not "relevant land" under POFA. I am very concerned that ECP is claiming that it has the right under POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from the vehicle’s keeper, even though it should have been obvious to ECP that no such right exists.

Edna_Basher · 7 January 2018 at 11:28PM

Indeed - so long as your are "appealing" as the vehicle's keeper that's a very valid point to include in your submission to POPLA. However, you will need to spell this out in Fisher Price language because some POPLA assessors seem to struggle understanding the finer points of POFA.

Paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 4 of POFA defines “traffic authority” as meaning each of the following:

(a) the Secretary of State;
(b) the Welsh Ministers;
(c) Transport for London;
(d) the Common Council of the City of London;
(e) the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district;
(f) a parish or community council;
(g) the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

According to this definition, Kent County Council is therefore a "traffic authority".

Paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 4 of POFA defines “parking place” as having the meaning given by section 32(4)(b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 i.e. a place where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may wait.

Paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 4 of POFA states that in this Schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than:

(a) a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);
(b) a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority;
(c) any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.

The parking places at [xxxxxx] Country Park, having been provided by Kent County Council (a "traffic authority" as defined under Schedule 4) are therefore not relevant land by virtue of Paragraph 3 (1) (b) of Schedule 4.

You'll also need to provide some proof that the Country Park is actually owned by the council. A screenshot from the council's website should do.

https://www.kent.gov.uk/leisure-and-community/kent-country-parks/find-a-kent-country-park

Of course, should the "appeal" progress as far as ECP providing you with an evidence pack, the cat will be out of the bag as soon as they provide details of any authorisation from the landowner (i.e. Kent County Council).

Edit: you could also include a screenshot from this page on KCC's website where the council states that ECP are responsible for issuing parking penalty charges (is that so, KCC???).

https://www.kent.gov.uk/leisure-and-community/kent-country-parks/season-tickets#tab-4

shaleman · 8 January 2018 at 12:03AM

Hi, thanks for the quick reply.

The Country Park is owned by Kent County Council and I will be appealing as the vehicle's keeper.

In my appeal to POPLA should I still include additional arguments about signage, landowner authority, keeper liability?

Thank you

Coupon-mad · 8 January 2018 at 12:04AM

Yes, always.

The beauty of a loooong POPLA appeal is, it can win just because it's so long that many PPCs won't waste man hours contesting it. We've seen it so often, we know it is true that the 'kitchen sink' POPLA appeal does work in itself.

shaleman · 8 January 2018 at 12:48AM

Thank you, will let you know how the appeal goes.

shaleman · 24 January 2018 at 5:32PM

I received an email from POPLA advising that ECP had now uploaded their evidence via the portal. Unfortunately when I tried to open the pdf attachment there was an error message, "failed to load pdf document".
I replied to POPLA on the email they sent me about the pdf issue, just slightly concerned now that I only have 7 days to respond to ECP's evidence on the portal but cannot read it. Should i wait for POPLA to respond to my email or is it best to phone them?

System · 24 January 2018 at 5:49PM

As Euro Car Parks already knows, the car park at Country Park is owned and provided by Kent County Council, a "traffic authority" as defined under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of POFA;

Nonsense. It is only a traffic authority if it is acting in that capacity. Check with the council if there is a Parking Places Order on that car park.

shaleman · 25 January 2018 at 12:01AM

The question i asked earlier today was whether I need to contact POPLA by email or by phone because I cannot open the pdf submitted by ECP on the POPLA portal?

The response received contradicts previous opinion and has been given after the appeal to POPLA has been submitted.

KeithP · 25 January 2018 at 12:33AM

What response did you receive? I can't see one.

Ring PoPLA. As you say, this is urgent.

Edna_Basher · 25 January 2018 at 1:39AM

IamEmanresu wrote: »

Nonsense. It is only a traffic authority if it is acting in that capacity. Check with the council if there is a Parking Places Order on that car park.

"Traffic authority" may be defined differently in other Acts. However, for the purpose of deciding what is and isn't relevant land under Schedule 4 of POFA, it surely has to be the actual definition in Schedule 4 of POFA that counts?

Paragraph 3 (1) (b) of Schedule 4 of POFA specifies that a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority is not relevant land.

Schedule 4 of POFA defines "traffic authority" simply as meaning each of the following:
(a) the Secretary of State;
(b) the Welsh Ministers;
(c) Transport for London;
(d) the Common Council of the City of London;
(e) the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district;
(f) a parish or community council;
(g) the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

Schedule 4 of POFA defines “parking place” as having the meaning given by section 32(4)(b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (i.e. a simple definition of "a place where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may wait").

Statutory control (including Orders in Council) is covered separately under Paragraph 3 (1) (c) i.e. any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control is not relevant land.

Whether or not the Government intended it to be that way, my reading of Schedule 4 of POFA is that any parking place provided or controlled by a county council is not relevant land, regardless of whether or not it is covered by a Parking Places Order. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

System · 25 January 2018 at 3:53AM

@Edna. How is Dennis?

I'm was going to disagree with you and cite London Councils and their Housing developments (NCP), City of London and their Commons (District) and certain councils in the South West (AS Parking)

... but it strikes me that I have not seen any court action from these organisations which suggests I may be wrong or at least the issue is of sufficient doubt that no-one wants to press it.

The OP is at liberty to try it but ECP don't press these matters in any case.

ECP Country Park

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