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  • FIRST POST
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    • 103Posts
    • 18Thanks
    Adams18
    Complicated Probate case... sigh
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    Complicated Probate case... sigh 14th Jun 19 at 3:03 PM
    Hello,

    I've posted in another forum about this situation, but from a different angle regarding the assets. Thread title "Inherited Mortgage due to mature... options?"

    I live in a family home with my mother who owns 75%. The other 25% used to be owned by my father who passed away two years ago. He also owned the mortgage which is outstanding.

    He did have a partner (not legal wife) at time of death who is not my mother.

    This partner has laid claim to the 25%, however this 25% is held in a special "trust" and is only accessible in the the triggering events that my mother (75% owned) dies, remarries or the lender forces sale of the property if mortgage is not paid. The partner has laid claim under the 1975 dependents act.

    But theoretically speaking the 25% does not form part of the estate of my father, nor does it hold any nominal value as it can't be accessed, not even by myself as the heir.

    It's so ridiculously confusing, I've been stressing for two years over it and the mortgage is due to be paid soon on the property.

    He had nothing else in his estate other than the 25% which is a charge back to him in the event of triggering events explained above.

    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Last edited by Adams18; 14-06-2019 at 3:05 PM.
Page 7
  • Land Registry
    Would that not have required permission from the mortgagee to add a new joint legal owner?
    Originally posted by Tom99
    From a registration perspective IF the lender had a restriction on the title preventing a disposition or Transfer by the registered owner without their consent, then Yes

    So what is the issue with the lender as you see it? Have you checked anything with them around the impact of his death on the secured loan?
    When was it mortgaged? Before the Divorce? The Transfer? Or after?
    You referred to them just wanting their money but if it's a secured loan don't they get more money by leaving it in place?
    And why do you think they'd start priceedings to try and force a repossession/sale by them if the payments are still happening?
    Lots of Qs to be answered still it seems

    As for your earlier reply how the beneficial pot(s) and estate are dealt with are not areas we deal with directly so that's for others to comment on
    Last edited by Land Registry; 17-06-2019 at 8:28 PM.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 17th Jun 19, 8:44 PM
    • 2,890 Posts
    • 2,601 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    I don't want to make this any more complicated than it already is, but...


    1. Simple answer I hope, but do the OP and the mother have any sort of problem in that they didn't notify the lender two years ago that the father had died? Or is there no problem because they kept up the interest payments? (EDIT: just realised Land Registry poster has raised this too).


    2. I still find it difficult to believe that the divorce settlement 20 years ago in respect of the house, provided for the mother's death but not the father's? It would be interesting to see the actual wording.
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 17-06-2019 at 8:46 PM. Reason: addition
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 18th Jun 19, 6:36 AM
    • 4,914 Posts
    • 3,439 Thanks
    Tom99
    I still find it difficult to believe that the divorce settlement 20 years ago in respect of the house, provided for the mother's death but not the father's? It would be interesting to see the actual wording.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    I would have thought that was quite normal because its the wife who has the life tenancy.
    What happens to the father's assets on death would be a matter for his will if he chose to have one.
    • nom de plume
    • By nom de plume 18th Jun 19, 6:48 AM
    • 891 Posts
    • 805 Thanks
    nom de plume
    A question for Land Registry. If the OP were to pay off the outstanding mortgage, could he register a charge on the property (with the current restrictions in place) to secure that as being perhaps a loan to his mother?


    Thank you for your input to this and other threads BTW.
  • Land Registry
    A question for Land Registry. If the OP were to pay off the outstanding mortgage, could he register a charge on the property (with the current restrictions in place) to secure that as being perhaps a loan to his mother?


    Thank you for your input to this and other threads BTW.
    Originally posted by nom de plume
    A registered charge, No. the form A restricts the sole surviving legal owner from taking receipt of capital monies on any disposition by her. So that catches a sale and mortgage in her name only.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    I don't want to make this any more complicated than it already is, but...


    1. Simple answer I hope, but do the OP and the mother have any sort of problem in that they didn't notify the lender two years ago that the father had died? Or is there no problem because they kept up the interest payments? (EDIT: just realised Land Registry poster has raised this too).


    2. I still find it difficult to believe that the divorce settlement 20 years ago in respect of the house, provided for the mother's death but not the father's? It would be interesting to see the actual wording.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    I think this is the crux of the issue and why the OP says they have spent thousands of pounds on legal advice. And as the Father left no will his partner appears to have some leverage which presumably only the courts have a final say on, if it gets that far

    The divorce agreement/court order, the purpose of the mortgage and how his death has impacted, plus the partner's claimed entitlement (what did the solicitor advise on that point?) remain unclear to me at least. But all of that is separate from the legal ownership so I very much doubt I can add anything more to the mix as a result
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 18th Jun 19, 7:40 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I think this is the crux of the issue and why the OP says they have spent thousands of pounds on legal advice. And as the Father left no will his partner appears to have some leverage which presumably only the courts have a final say on, if it gets that far

    The divorce agreement/court order, the purpose of the mortgage and how his death has impacted, plus the partner's claimed entitlement (what did the solicitor advise on that point?) remain unclear to me at least. But all of that is separate from the legal ownership so I very much doubt I can add anything more to the mix as a result
    Originally posted by Land Registry
    I am just reading the last correspondence I got back from the Land Registry in March -

    My mother removed fathers name from the register, and official copy was enclosed.

    The register contains the following restriction which was not removed as part of the application: "No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except by a trust corporation) under which capital monies arises is to be registered except under an order of the Court"

    "Although the property now has only one registered owner, we cannot remove the restriction until we are satisfied that it is no longer required"


    "The restriction will no longer be required if the remaining registered owner has also become the sole beneficiary, and nobody else has a beneficial interest in the land.

    "While it remains on the register, this restriction will stop the registration of any disposition (such as sale or mortgage) made by a single surviving registered owner unless the court has ordered it. If the trust is continuing, a second trustee can be appointed to act with you in order to comply with the restriction.


    Proprietorship register

    (2004) PROPRIETOR: My mother
    (2004) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except by a trust corporation) under which capital monies arises is to be registered except under an order of the Court
    ... plus others about some generic covenants on the land for transfer to proprietor

    Charges register

    Two other charges here (old stuff) plus this ones:

    (2010) Proprietor: SANTANDER UK PLC of Deeds Services, address etc..
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 18th Jun 19, 10:11 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I don't want to make this any more complicated than it already is, but...


    1. Simple answer I hope, but do the OP and the mother have any sort of problem in that they didn't notify the lender two years ago that the father had died? Or is there no problem because they kept up the interest payments? (EDIT: just realised Land Registry poster has raised this too).

    We were both worried we would lose the house, and we were aggressively saving by that point (for a number of years) to prepare for when the day comes.

    2. I still find it difficult to believe that the divorce settlement 20 years ago in respect of the house, provided for the mother's death but not the father's? It would be interesting to see the actual wording.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    My mother had partial power of attorney on his mortgage account, which would have ceased when he passed except the lender don't know he has passed yet and thus they have continued to accept interest payments and arrears from my moms account.

    The original wording from the last amended court order:

    The property is to be transferred from Mr Dad to the Co-owners as tenants in common in unequal shares on the basis that on sale of the property the net proceeds of sale are to be divided 75% to Ms Mom and 25% to Mr Dad.

    The Earlier Order further provided inter alia that Mr Dad shall not be entitled to sell the property until the earlier of the following events has occurred:-

    1. Ms Mom should die
    2. Ms Mom should re-marry


    Both mom and dad signed the document as a deed in presence of witnesses
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