Issued a Bylaw 13 letter by the BTP

Options
Kiko4564
Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
edited 8 May 2019 at 10:58PM in Public transport & cycling
Can you please advise me if the following warning letter issued by a Sergeant based at BTP's Police office in Norwich Railway Station actually has any lawful validity or is it just a load of tripe? If it is valid can you help me challenge it please?

5th April 2019

(Full name and address removed)

Dear Mr Potter

I am writing to you in regards to your recent behaviour at Norwich Rail (sic) Station where you have been seen loitering resulting in a large amount of intelligence being gathered.. (sic) This letter is to advise you that it is against the railway byelaws to loiter or remain at a railway station when asked to leave by an authorised person. This is contrary to byelaw 13(2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Railway Authority and confirmed under schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005
The definition of an authorised person includes any constable acting in the execution of their duties upon or in connection with the railway.
This letter is to advise you that the only reason for you to be at a station is to purchase a ticket or to travel on the next available service. If for any reason you are not doing either or you do not board the next available service then you will be liable to prosecution. This letter serves as direction for you to not remain on the railway unless it is for the above reasons.
Furthermore you are aware you are not permitted to film whilst on the railway without written permission. This also includes filming parts of the rail network and people using it as it will constitute further offences under the railway byelaws.
Should you continue to breach the byelaws then as well as prosecution we will seek to apply banning conditions against you on the rail network.

Yours Sincerely

[REDACTED]
Norwich BTP

British Transport Police

British Transport Police
Norwich Train Station
Station Approach
Norwich NR1 1EG

(DX contact details removed)

Tel: 0800 40 50 40

A copy of Railway Bylaw 13 and part of Bylaw 25 (1) which highlights the definition of an "authorised person" is then provided.

This letter now raises the question of validity given that the spirit of Railway Bylaw 13 (2) appears to be to allow an authorised person to remove someone loitering on the railway for a short amount of time (not to exceed 24 hours) by requiring that they leave the premises.
«1

Comments

  • twhitehousescat
    twhitehousescat Posts: 5,368 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Options
    trainspotters will be prosicuted
  • Manxman_in_exile
    Manxman_in_exile Posts: 8,380 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    Ignoring the fact that they can't spell "bylaw", does the excerpt of the legislation they've provided cover your "loitering"?


    Out of interest, what were you doing to constitute loitering?


    You could try: https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/disputes-prosecutions.152/
  • Kiko4564
    Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    edited 8 May 2019 at 10:00PM
    Options
    The letter doesn't actually say that and to be fair to the Sergeant in question I actually asked him that question. He said that trainspotting is fine and not in breach of that letter. I have however been advised by another BTP officer (Craig) that I should request permission from a member of Greater Anglia (the TOC who manage Norwich station) staff before trainspotting unless travelling on the next available service.
  • Kiko4564
    Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    edited 8 May 2019 at 10:56PM
    Options
    I've already checked out the RailUK forums thank you.
  • Kiko4564
    Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    edited 8 May 2019 at 10:01PM
    Options
    It arguably does because "loitering" is not defined.

    I was allegedly following a female Police officer around and admiring her. This was part of the conduct which resulted in me later being arrested for harassing her and one of her colleagues.

    This is a full copy of the Railway Bylaws (2005) which the Sergeant quoted in his letter to me: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,638 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Options
    Did you notice how Byelaws was spelt in that Government link you provided?

    Not sure why you have so many (sic)s in your copy of their letter in your opening post.

    Anyway, that aside, The last post on that RaiUK thread you have shown us says:
    RailUK wrote:
    The history of this individual is readily available online in both the local and national press. Hence his postings on this forum should be taken particularly seriously and not encouraged.

    Mark, it might be best if you let this drop and follow the guidance the BTP have given you.
  • Kiko4564
    Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    edited 8 May 2019 at 11:00PM
    Options
    I did notice. I have therefore reversed myself and removed most of "(sic)"s.

    It might be best if I wait for people to contribute to this thread and make an informed decision once a few more people have posted.

    Why should I follow the guidance that the Sergeant has provided me when it is legally tripe (as far as I'm concerned) and I am not actually banned from the Railway station by the landowner (Network Rail) or the TOC who manage it (Greater Anglia)? As far as I'm concerned no Bylaw offence is made out if I simply return to Norwich station and remain there whether I'm travelling or not.
  • Manxman_in_exile
    Manxman_in_exile Posts: 8,380 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    KeithP wrote: »
    Did you notice how Byelaws was spelt in that Government link you provided?

    Not sure why you have so many (sic)s in your copy of their letter in your opening post.

    Anyway, that aside, The last post on that RaiUK thread you have shown us says:


    Mark, it might be best if you let this drop and follow the guidance the BTP have given you    .


    That's interesting! The OP has also posted on Legal Beagles.


    As an aside, surely "by-law" is not spelt "byelaw"? (I don't care what that .gov link says!)
  • Comms69
    Comms69 Posts: 14,229 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    Options
    Kiko4564 wrote: »
    Can you please advise me if the following warning letter issued by a Sergeant based at BTP's Police office in Norwich Railway Station actually has any lawful validity or is it just a load of tripe? If it is valid can you help me challenge it please?

    5th April 2019

    (Full name and address removed)

    Dear Mr Potter

    I am writing to you in regards to your recent behaviour at Norwich Rail (sic) Station where you have been seen loitering resulting in a large amount of intelligence being gathered.. (sic) This letter is to advise you that it is against the railway byelaws to loiter or remain at a railway station when asked to leave by an authorised person. This is contrary to byelaw 13(2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Railway Authority and confirmed under schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005
    The definition of an authorised person includes any constable acting in the execution of their duties upon or in connection with the railway.
    This letter is to advise you that the only reason for you to be at a station is to purchase a ticket or to travel on the next available service. If for any reason you are not doing either or you do not board the next available service then you will be liable to prosecution. This letter serves as direction for you to not remain on the railway unless it is for the above reasons.
    Furthermore you are aware you are not permitted to film whilst on the railway without written permission. This also includes filming parts of the rail network and people using it as it will constitute further offences under the railway byelaws.
    Should you continue to breach the byelaws then as well as prosecution we will seek to apply banning conditions against you on the rail network.

    Yours Sincerely

    [REDACTED]
    Norwich BTP

    British Transport Police

    British Transport Police
    Norwich Train Station
    Station Approach
    Norwich NR1 1EG

    (DX contact details removed)

    Tel: 0800 40 50 40

    A copy of Railway Bylaw 13 and part of Bylaw 25 (1) which highlights the definition of an "authorised person" is then provided.

    This letter now raises the question of validity given that the spirit of Railway Bylaw 13 (2) appears to be to allow an authorised person to remove someone loitering on the railway for a short amount of time (not to exceed 24 hours) by requiring that they leave the premises.



    Potters Police Videos by any chance.


    I'd suggest that you avoid doing this activity; and abide by the instructions in the letter.
  • Kiko4564
    Kiko4564 Posts: 217 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    Someone on the RailUK Forum said:
    "The history of this individual is readily available online in both the local and national press. Hence his postings on this forum should be taken particularly seriously and not encouraged."
This discussion has been closed.
★ ★ ★ Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.1K Life & Family
  • 247.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards