Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Reading the contract, the problem is the clause 5.7.1 this is over and above the 5 pence per litre cap in any given twelve (which sounds a very good deal verbally on the phone BUT

This mean they can still move the price at any time as long as they can justify an increase in the PLATTS price (not ANSI) which most of the independents work to and is highlighted in this forum.

HateLPG wrote: »

Flogas customers, TAKE NOTE!

A bit of good new, for once!

Although you may not realise it, following an Undertaking to the OFT by Flogas earlier this year (in April, I believe), you now have, as part of your existing contracts, a "price cap clause".

Full details can be found in the short document at http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consumer-enforcement/SKMBT.pdf

Paragraph 3(a) sets out the nature of pricing clauses that Flogas are permitted to include in their contracts;

Paragraph 3(c) explains in simple terms that any such clauses will be binding on all extant contracts.

I doubt Flogas will be in much of a hurry to tell existing customers about this, so if they try to subject you to (or have recently subjected you to) a large rise, I would suggest pointing this document out to them (and also advising Sharon Dias at the OFT of your experiences).

Flogas now publish their Terms and Conditions online, as required by the OFT (see http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/consumer-enforcement/consumer-enforcement-completed/lpg/) and although they are not immediately obvious, they can be found at: http://www.flogas.co.uk/226/domestic-contract-terms-and-conditions

And what a convoluted set of terms they are. They are clearly designed to be as opaque as possible to the consumer and to leave Flogas the maximum opportuinty to push their prices upwards:

IMPORTANT UPDATE: This may not be such good news after all - see my later post here

Jaspersmum wrote: »

Hello
I have moved into a house this week in a village with no gas. The bungalow is LPG and is supplied by Calor although is not on contract apparently.

I received a letter from Calor the day I moved in (keen) offering me a 2 year contract at 49.40 ppl + 5% vat and a standing charge of 16.90 ppd + vat. <snip>

Welcome to the wonderful world of LPG! Thanks for reposting in this thread - and for posting Calor's offer.

A few questions for you, please! First, how much is in the tank now? You probably won't be using much during this glorious summer so you're probably in no rush to accept Calor's kind offer, negotiate a better deal - or even switch suppliers.

Next, do you know how much (in litres) the previous owner used a year? Potential suppliers will probably ask, and this and the tank size may effect the price you are offered. Maybe you know how many fills per year the previous owner had? Since tanks are refilled at around 20% (and filled up to a maximum of 85%), and the tank size should be on the brass plate you can work out a rough usage.

Thirdly, have you put your postcode in the UKLPG website (here) to find which of their members might supply you? There are other suppliers, and you can get LPG through farmers' co-ops (e.g. Mole Valley Farmers) - or there may even be a local buying group. Suppliers have to give a quote over the phone, subject to a follow-up site visit if you want to go further. This is a ruling from the Competition Commission which looked into the wonderful world of LPG (see here - article 19.3).

As frankie has posted, Calor's offer is not good. Wholesale prices are falling (here) - and Cardiff Gas's June price was 42ppl, LPGas Wales Direct's current price is 45.9ppl, Extra Fuel's July price is 41.43ppl ... and these three companies' prices go down as well as up (whereas the prices of Calor and the other major suppliers seem to strive, olympically, for ever higher values, once you've signed their 2 yr exclusive contract.....so the bait is usually an unrealistically low initial price. Calor have offered you 49.90ppl, higher than any of these independents, so they aren't even competing. Yet. Their rental - aka 'standing charge' - of just about sixty quid for an overground tank is fine).

You can find some recent offers people have received in this thread. Check out posts by Ace gas guzzler and ironnick - and please post the offers you get (including the cost of rental, freebies such as 'free gas', etc).

If your tank is low and you need a top-up (since this 'summer' has been referred to trading standards) you have to get it from Calor. You'll need to try to haggle over the price. Mention Cardiff Gas's price! In fact, why not give them and LPGas Wales a ring to see if they know any non-UKLPG members in your part of Wales?

Good luck!
..

bry54 wrote: »

Countrywide refused to accept liability saying the tank was sited in accordance with their risk accessor. <snip>

From Countrywide's website (here):

Aboveground tanks need to be certain distances from your property in accordance with the UKLPG codes of practice, our technical staff will be happy to advise of siting procedures and tank size required.
Customers are required in most circumstances to undertake all civil work required for the installation, Countrywide will place the tank on the base and install pipe work required from the tank to the outside of the property.

It looks to me as if their "technical staff" - or risk assessor - or whatever they wish to call the person - got it wrong. AND every single delivery you have had since should NOT have happened because the driver has to CHECK each time before he delivers. If he/she is not satisfied it's safe they won't deliver.

One of the strong points that the suppliers made to the Competition Commission about LPG users owning their own tanks (which the CC had suggested) was that it was a very onerous responsibility for mere users to be comply with all the legal regs. Etc, etc. It's all in the CC report and submissions (now in the National Archives - here), and on the UKLPG website (e.g. here and here). If you want to explore further please post and I'll dig up more specific links.

I think there's mileage in going back to Countrywide, copy to UKLPG, your MP, Trading Standards, etc ... and, of course, to OFT.

LittleVermin wrote: »

..."you should call Consumer Direct" (here, but CD has been closed, but there is a forwarding link to the self-help CAB website) and the Energy Ombudsman (with its web address) .. which now goes to the Ombudsman Services website but the latter has (here):

We cannot deal with complaints about:...

• ...
• Liquid propane gas (LPG)

so I think that number 13 for "Who do I complain to if I have a disagreement with my supplier?" is very well chosen! Unlucky for all of us.

But at least we've got the OFT .......
..

However...........

bry54 wrote: »

I've written to OFT and they replied

"We are unable to advise you about this issue as it falls outside of the remit of the DomesticBulk Liquefied Petroleum Gas Market Investigation Order 2008. We suggest you seek your own legal advice"

From personal experience, this seems to be a pretty stock reply from the OFT if they don't know, aren't sure or simply aren't interested and just want the troublesome LPG user to go away. And also from personal experience, CAB are likely to be little, if any, help in any dispute - they have no teeth, merely advise (as their name suggests).

So where does that leave us? :mad:

It appears that there is absolutely no consumer protection whatsoever for LPG users.