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  • FIRST POST
    • zoob
    • By zoob 21st Jun 19, 6:05 PM
    • 314Posts
    • 186Thanks
    zoob
    Litter fine question
    • #1
    • 21st Jun 19, 6:05 PM
    Litter fine question 21st Jun 19 at 6:05 PM
    Not disputing or defending what I did, but today by mistake I dropped a small bit of litter on the ground in a shopping centre car park by mistake, a council official approached me and asked if I was aware of what I’d done and I replied yes
    He then proceeded to take my details and said I’d get a letter in the post and a fine to pay
    My question is, can councils officials give out fines on a private car park?
Page 1
    • RikM
    • By RikM 21st Jun 19, 6:40 PM
    • 687 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    RikM
    • #2
    • 21st Jun 19, 6:40 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Jun 19, 6:40 PM
    Litter (Northern Ireland) 1994 says:
    Offence of leaving litter
    3.—(1) If any person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits in, into or from any place open to the air, and leaves, any thing whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any such place, he shall, subject to paragraph (2), be guilty of an offence.

    (2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under paragraph (1) to prove that the depositing and leaving of the thing was—

    (a)authorised by law, or
    (b)done with the consent of the owner or other person or authority having control of the place in or into which that thing was deposited.
    (3) A person who is guilty of an offence under this Article shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

    (4) A district council, with a view to promoting the abatement of litter, may take such steps as the council thinks appropriate for making the effect of paragraph (3) known to the public in its district.
    Which is fairly clear in stating "any place open to the air"...
    • CEON44
    • By CEON44 21st Jun 19, 8:00 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    CEON44
    • #3
    • 21st Jun 19, 8:00 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Jun 19, 8:00 PM
    I wish they were as quick to fine the dog owners who let their mutts s**t all over the place and dont pick it up
    I started out with nothing......And still have most of it left
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 22nd Jun 19, 9:41 AM
    • 9,552 Posts
    • 10,072 Thanks
    pogofish
    • #4
    • 22nd Jun 19, 9:41 AM
    • #4
    • 22nd Jun 19, 9:41 AM
    What they can do on private property all depends on the wayleave granted by the individual land owner/operator. IIRC, flytipping is the only litter related offence they have an absolute right to enter private property to act on.

    So you should maybe contact the shopping centre to see the exact terms of their agreement.
    • RikM
    • By RikM 23rd Jun 19, 8:24 AM
    • 687 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    RikM
    • #5
    • 23rd Jun 19, 8:24 AM
    • #5
    • 23rd Jun 19, 8:24 AM
    That would fall under the "consent of the owner" clause in the law... So yes, if the shopping centre says you're allowed to drop litter... (think that's likely?)
    • Zola.
    • By Zola. 1st Jul 19, 12:53 PM
    • 1,520 Posts
    • 726 Thanks
    Zola.
    • #6
    • 1st Jul 19, 12:53 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Jul 19, 12:53 PM
    People who litter on purpose are scum.
    • Missmarie
    • By Missmarie 1st Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Missmarie
    • #7
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:01 PM
    Previous reply is awful. I got a £50 fine at Glasgow Central cause I threw the cigarette down. They don'thave any bins at the station for bomb reasons.

    I wrote to Glasgow and said I came out the Somerfield Supermarket and dropped it by accident. They wrote off the fine.
    • Zola.
    • By Zola. 1st Jul 19, 1:04 PM
    • 1,520 Posts
    • 726 Thanks
    Zola.
    • #8
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:04 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:04 PM
    Previous reply is awful. I got a £50 fine at Glasgow Central cause I threw the cigarette down. They don'thave any bins at the station for bomb reasons.

    I wrote to Glasgow and said I came out the Somerfield Supermarket and dropped it by accident. They wrote off the fine.
    Originally posted by Missmarie
    You could put it out and put the cig butt in a tissue and in your bag if they dont have a bin nearby.

    In Japan they typically don't have bins in the street or in stations (except bottle and paper recycling), they take their rubbish home with them and dispose of it responsibly.

    Would you throw a used cigarette on your bedroom floor?
    Don't try and justify it.
    Last edited by Zola.; 01-07-2019 at 1:08 PM.
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 1st Jul 19, 1:23 PM
    • 7,512 Posts
    • 11,002 Thanks
    spadoosh
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:23 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 19, 1:23 PM
    Previous reply is awful. I got a £50 fine at Glasgow Central cause I threw the cigarette down. They don'thave any bins at the station for bomb reasons.

    I wrote to Glasgow and said I came out the Somerfield Supermarket and dropped it by accident. They wrote off the fine.
    Originally posted by Missmarie
    If somewhere doesnt have a toilet do you crap where you want too?
    Don't be angry!
    • RikM
    • By RikM 2nd Jul 19, 7:25 AM
    • 687 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    RikM
    The thing I didn't know, before looking at this: littering is a criminal offence in NI... Left to local authorities to enforce, but still... Chalk it up with jaywalking.
    • qwert yuiop
    • By qwert yuiop 2nd Jul 19, 8:59 AM
    • 3,117 Posts
    • 2,236 Thanks
    qwert yuiop
    . Chalk it up with jaywalking.
    Originally posted by RikM
    Don’t.
    It’s only an offence to cross the road if you cause an accident. There’s also some caveat about it having been clearly witnessed by a police officer, so jaywalking doesn’t really exist in NI ( and definitely doesn’t exist in England).
    “What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare
    • qwert yuiop
    • By qwert yuiop 2nd Jul 19, 9:04 AM
    • 3,117 Posts
    • 2,236 Thanks
    qwert yuiop
    Where’s the most littered town around? I’d say it’s Keady. People seem to come into town on a Saturday night, have a feed of burgers, chips, drinks, then just buck it all down on the street. What a mess.
    “What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 2nd Jul 19, 9:50 AM
    • 9,552 Posts
    • 10,072 Thanks
    pogofish
    The thing I didn't know, before looking at this: littering is a criminal offence in NI... Left to local authorities to enforce, but still... Chalk it up with jaywalking.
    Originally posted by RikM
    Actually they don't enforce it - A litter ticket is an offer from the authority to discharge responsibility (effectively turn a blind eye), not a penalty for breaking the law. So they make money by not doing their job..!
    Last edited by pogofish; 02-07-2019 at 10:10 AM.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 2nd Jul 19, 10:02 AM
    • 9,552 Posts
    • 10,072 Thanks
    pogofish
    That would fall under the "consent of the owner" clause in the law... So yes, if the shopping centre says you're allowed to drop litter... (think that's likely?)
    Originally posted by RikM
    No, it would fall under the "consent to operate" part of the law.

    Without prior permission/agreement, officials/patrollers are quite limited in what they can and can't do on private property but with a formal agreement in place they can operate pretty-much as they would on public property - and IME, most places with a reasonable amount of effectively public space or footfall (eg Shopping centres, larger hospitals, university campuses etc) have got such agreements in place - but it might be worth checking the specific terms as the detail can vary between sites.
    Last edited by pogofish; 02-07-2019 at 10:31 AM.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 2nd Jul 19, 12:51 PM
    • 7,598 Posts
    • 9,888 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    Previous reply is awful. I got a £50 fine at Glasgow Central cause I threw the cigarette down. They don'thave any bins at the station for bomb reasons.

    I wrote to Glasgow and said I came out the Somerfield Supermarket and dropped it by accident. They wrote off the fine.
    Originally posted by Missmarie
    They were wrong. I'm not sure why you would think that adding lying to antisocial behaviour is appropriate or advice that the OP should follow.

    Based on what you say, you deliberately threw your litter on the ground because you were too lazy to wait until you could put it in a bin. That's horrible behaviou - why would you think it is acceptable or hat the fact that there wasn't a bin immediately there would make it OK?

    If there isn't a bin handy, you keep hold of your litter until you get home, or to somewhere there is a bin.

    If you smoke reguarly, perhaps get a small metal tin so you have somewhere you can put cigarette ends in, in your bag or pocket, until you can dispose of them properly.
    • johnsmith1890
    • By johnsmith1890 2nd Jul 19, 9:04 PM
    • 558 Posts
    • 456 Thanks
    johnsmith1890
    Related to this - when the jobsworths ask for "your details", presumably you could tell them anything, or even walk away. If doing the latter, I wonder what they do about it?
    • qwert yuiop
    • By qwert yuiop 3rd Jul 19, 2:43 PM
    • 3,117 Posts
    • 2,236 Thanks
    qwert yuiop
    Related to this - when the jobsworths ask for "your details", presumably you could tell them anything, or even walk away. If doing the latter, I wonder what they do about it?
    Originally posted by johnsmith1890
    What’s the difference between doing the job you get paid for and being a jobsworth? Presumably a job involving enforcing littering control rules requires the employee to enforce littering control rules.

    Are you that street preacher from portadown?
    “What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 3rd Jul 19, 2:58 PM
    • 7,512 Posts
    • 11,002 Thanks
    spadoosh
    What’s the difference between doing the job you get paid for and being a jobsworth? Presumably a job involving enforcing littering control rules requires the employee to enforce littering control rules.

    Are you that street preacher from portadown?
    Originally posted by qwert yuiop
    The difference between someone doing their job and someone being a jobsworth is the ability to apply common sense.

    So in a litter enforcing scenario, say, someone accidentally drops some litter as theyre pulling their keys from their pocket. They should be politely asked to pick it up. If they refuse then enforce. A jobsworth takes no account of the circumstance and would enforce as soon as they saw the litter hit the floor.

    Jobsworths are typically assosciated with enforcement positions. I remember HR would always give me rubbish about clocking in and out. This was someone who knew i hadnt missed a shift or been late once in 10 years. I said to her she should just assume that i was in unless she heard otherwise as it would be painfully obvious to her if i hadnt been in. She then threatened to not pay me if i didnt sign in. At which point i pointed out to her it is only a legal requirement of the employer to keep records of employees attendance for health and safety reasons and there wasnt anything legal to mandate me signing in and out. She never jobsworthed me again.
    Don't be angry!
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