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  • FIRST POST
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    • 103Posts
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    Adams18
    Complicated Probate case... sigh
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    Complicated Probate case... sigh 14th Jun 19 at 3:03 PM
    Hello,

    I've posted in another forum about this situation, but from a different angle regarding the assets. Thread title "Inherited Mortgage due to mature... options?"

    I live in a family home with my mother who owns 75%. The other 25% used to be owned by my father who passed away two years ago. He also owned the mortgage which is outstanding.

    He did have a partner (not legal wife) at time of death who is not my mother.

    This partner has laid claim to the 25%, however this 25% is held in a special "trust" and is only accessible in the the triggering events that my mother (75% owned) dies, remarries or the lender forces sale of the property if mortgage is not paid. The partner has laid claim under the 1975 dependents act.

    But theoretically speaking the 25% does not form part of the estate of my father, nor does it hold any nominal value as it can't be accessed, not even by myself as the heir.

    It's so ridiculously confusing, I've been stressing for two years over it and the mortgage is due to be paid soon on the property.

    He had nothing else in his estate other than the 25% which is a charge back to him in the event of triggering events explained above.

    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Last edited by Adams18; 14-06-2019 at 3:05 PM.
Page 4
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:02 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    An advert in the law gazette and a local paper to where his dad lived will reveal any other unknown debts, especially if the partner doesn't disclose any.

    I assume OP has his dad's papers from the paper so can go through them and establish any debts.

    As pointed out in 80k comes off the 25% value at the date of death of the property, I would suggest getting it revalued again by the guy who did it 6m after your dad died.

    The cost of the funeral, wake and probate application with associated fees also comes out the estate.

    Starting to look like the pot the partner is chasing is a lot smaller than she thought...

    Make sure you screen print the comments from the other thread, and this one, as guidance just in case one accidentally gets deleted!

    Hopefully, you are now confident this can get unraveled
    Originally posted by MovingForwards

    Thank you for your support and advise, for me, probate is the next chapter in this journey. I am deliberating whether I should do this myself or instruct someone else to do it for me.. I am reading guides online...

    I have none of his documentation except for his bank statements for 6 years, and what he had in his account at the time of death.

    I took the screenshots.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:03 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    It is looking like the 25% is after 80k paid off so only 20k off the 25% share.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Yep..

    60K off of my moms share, and 20k off of dad's potential estate.
    Last edited by Adams18; 15-06-2019 at 10:19 PM.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:06 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    So at the moment, you have a house worth 500k with claims against it for 80k by the bank and up to 105k by the partner - and complications about who can access what, when.



    The bank are going to get their 80k - they can get it the easy way by you paying it, or they can get it the hard way by repossessing. If they repossess they would have charges and little motivation to get the very best price so this would probably be a financially poor decision - you and your mother could well lose lot of money going that route.


    Is the partner claiming the whole or a portion of your father's estate?
    Originally posted by theoretica
    Precisely as you say, risk the bank selling at an unfavourable price, or try and take back control myself by paying up and figuring out whether to sell or keep on my terms.

    She is claiming for the entire 25%.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:16 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    The banks were happy to allow you to deal with your father's affairs even though you have not applied to be the PR?

    Was the house originally wholly owned by your mother but she permitted your father to borrow 80,000 using the property as security?

    The divorce settlement allowed him 25% of the value of the property on your mother's death or re-marriage?

    For the past two years you have been using this money to pay the interest owed by your father? Or you are holding the money in a separate account to meet (partially) the repayment of the 80,000?
    Originally posted by xylophone

    Yes the bank gave it to me as I gave them full documentation on who I was (birth certificate), I believe in these situations where there is little money in the deceased account the bank is flexible... UK laws on property and trusts in respect to probate and estates if far more stringent.

    They flexible with giving away money to those who request it in the event of someone passing away provided they sign an indemnity form meaning if it is found that you weren't who you claimed to be or that you were NOT authorised to take money out of the deceased bank accounts you must return it or face prosecution.

    The house never belonged to my mom prior... my father bought it, owned it, took out the mortgage, my mom couldnt even read or speak english at that point in time she just came to the country. Father had been here 15 years prior.

    Property was transferred to my mom in 1998, then transferred into joint names in 2004 regarding legal ownership. And the beneficial interest (the equity) was split 25% to my dad and 75% to my mom, but my dad only gets paid if the house is sold, if my mom remarries or if my mom dies.

    I haven't used any money to pay the mortgage interest payments except what I have been earning from my job. I've been paying for 6 years since I started working.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:29 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    After listening to everyones viewpoints it seems paying up and then dealing with the claimant/25% as things unfold more seems the way to go.

    Letting the bank sell the house is risky, have no clue what they would sell it for... I know it wouldn't be something silly because they have a duty to sell for a reasonable price... but will always be below market value.

    Deep down inside me, and my mother, I don't believe I owe the claimant anything the same way I feel I didnt owed my father anything. While he was alive we wanted to raise a case of TLATA to show that he doesnt deserve anything because he never made any payments towards this house. And I and my mother have maintained it financially, with supporting documentation/invoices.

    But the claimant does have a claim in the UK court of law, and it is against my fathers (potential) estate, which I have to respect.

    Property prices are high in london, losing the house could be bad choice, paying 80k and holding on to it could be a better investment. I also have my own life to live, and may have wanted to have my own property instead of being tied down with a remortgage or potentially paying out the claimaint with a loan.

    I'll have to wait and see what happens from the claimants side following probate proceeding, and speak to the bank about the situation.

    It's so stressful because I grew up in this home.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 10:35 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I would appreciate any advise on probate if anyone has done it... in terms of what to state on the forms? A poster mentioned 25% on trust with 80k Debt.. and state the value of the property at the time of death?
    • MovingForwards
    • By MovingForwards 15th Jun 19, 11:54 PM
    • 2,364 Posts
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    MovingForwards
    It's your dad's 25% at date of death,

    You then need to add what all his assets were ie bank accounts/ savings etc

    Less debts / mortgage / funeral costs

    = the value of his estate.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 16th Jun 19, 12:49 AM
    • 40,096 Posts
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    Savvy_Sue
    Can I please check one VITAL detail.

    You refer to your late father's 'partner'. At one point she claimed to be his wife. WERE THEY IN FACT MARRIED?

    Because if they were, that may change the situation.


    OK, read the 'other' thread. You're sure they weren't married, so it's a claim under the dependency act. You're right, your father could have married her, or left a will. But I can understand her feeling 'entitled', they were together for a substantial chunk of time. I'm not saying she is ...
    Last edited by Savvy_Sue; 16-06-2019 at 12:56 AM.
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    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Jun 19, 2:21 AM
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    getmore4less
    What did the divorce settlement say about who pays the interest on the mortgage?
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 16th Jun 19, 6:09 AM
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    • 4,759 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Just thinking ahead for the future, assuming this all gets sorted favourably.

    How old is your Mum and is she in good health? How old are you? You seem very young if you only started work 6 years ago.

    Can your Mum afford the upkeep of the house on her own? Is she allowed to sell the property?

    If you've ploughed 80k into your Mum's house and you can't release your 25% unless a trigger event occurs how do you propose to live an independent life once you eventually move out with or without a partner of your own?

    Do you have other savings? You won't qualify as a first time buyer if you did want to buy.

    Just thinking out loud.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 16th Jun 19, 6:19 AM
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    Sea Shell
    Can someone even bring a claim under "dependency" if the estate is intestate?

    They've not been left out of a will, if there was no will.


    * Edit apparently so....see

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1975/63
    Last edited by Sea Shell; 16-06-2019 at 7:32 AM. Reason: Additional information
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 16th Jun 19, 6:24 AM
    • 4,934 Posts
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    Tom99
    I would appreciate any advise on probate if anyone has done it... in terms of what to state on the forms? A poster mentioned 25% on trust with 80k Debt.. and state the value of the property at the time of death?
    Originally posted by Adams18
    The forms are pretty straight forward so I would do it yourself. The biggest problem is arriving at the market value of your father's share in the house. Do your have an RICS valuation as at the date of death.

    I assume the asset side would be something like this:
    Open Market Value 500k x 25% share = 125k
    But your mother has a life interest in this 25% as well as owning outright her 75%, so the 125k should be deferred.
    If you take age 84 as your mothers life expectancy, see here to back up your claim:
    http://www.riskprediction.org.uk/index_lifeexp.php
    And a deferment interest rate of say 5%, then defer the 125k for 30yrs at 5%:
    (500k/4)/(1.05^30)=28,922 call it 29,000.

    There may be some guidance in one of the Valuation Office Manuals about how to value property subject to a life interest but I can't find it at the moment.

    Then on the debt side its more straight forward 80k/4=20k
    So you father would have a net estate of c 9k

    But remember:
    All figures must be as at date of death, that includes the full market value of house, mortgage outstanding.
    There will be other adjustments, cost of funeral to deduct, cash assets to add etc.
    Last edited by Tom99; 16-06-2019 at 6:26 AM.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 16th Jun 19, 7:59 AM
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    Manxman in exile
    Sensitive question, but I'll ask anyway.


    When your mum dies, who is likely to benefit from her estate? Are you an only child or are there siblings? Or any other dependents?


    Has she made a will?


    Apologies if these have already been answered, but worth considering if you don't want to lose the house to pay other bequests etc.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 16th Jun 19, 11:47 AM
    • 31,400 Posts
    • 19,465 Thanks
    xylophone
    The property was originally occupied by the deceased, his wife and the OP.

    The deceased took out an interest only mortgage on the property in his sole name.

    The mortgage loan was for 80,000.

    The deceased divorced his wife - the divorce settlement gave the deceased a 25% interest in the property but he could not realise his interest until the ex wife died or remarried.

    The deceased did not remarry but lived with a partner for a number of years.


    It appears that the interest only payments have been met by the OP/his mother for the last 20+ years - he has not advised the mortgagee of his father's death - it is unclear whether the mortgagee ever knew that it was the OP/his mother who was making the interest payments.


    The deceased died intestate with assets of a few thousand, a liability of 80,000 and a right to 25% of the value of the property on the death or remarriage of the ex wife.

    The deceased had only one child (the OP)- the OP inherits under the intestacy rules.

    The OP therefore inherits a few thousand, the debt and the right to 25,000 on the death or remarriage of his mother.

    The deceased's partner was not financially dependent on him but she has nevertheless made a claim on his estate.

    It is unclear whether or not she would be awarded any provision in view of the fact that she was not financially dependent - ( also the fact that the deceased had not contributed to the maintenance of the property or made any interest payments for at least twenty years might be taken into account).

    On death, the deceased had assets of "a few thousand" and a liability for 80,000.

    If we assumed the "few thousand" was say 5000, then the estate still has a liability of 75,000 to be set against the value of the 25% of the property.

    Under these circumstances, I can't see why the OP would not settle his father's liability and either let the partner bring the claim (which she might not win) against what seems to be a net estate of around 50,000,or negotiate an amount in "full and final settlement" with the partner?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Jun 19, 12:07 PM
    • 37,440 Posts
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    getmore4less
    The op has made it clear the 25% is AFTER the debt is repaid.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 16th Jun 19, 12:14 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    It's your dad's 25% at date of death,

    You then need to add what all his assets were ie bank accounts/ savings etc

    Less debts / mortgage / funeral costs

    = the value of his estate.
    Originally posted by MovingForwards
    But my solicitor said that really the 25% has no nominal value right now...

    So do I just use 25% market value as a best guess? Is that how people list shares in property?
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 16th Jun 19, 12:16 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    The op has made it clear the 25% is AFTER the debt is repaid.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Yeah exactly... it is redeemed before the 25% even materialises.

    So then apart from the few thousand he had in his account, it's just 25% share on a life interest of life expectancy for my mother who is 54. Don't know how to list that in a probate form.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 16th Jun 19, 12:19 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Can I please check one VITAL detail.

    You refer to your late father's 'partner'. At one point she claimed to be his wife. WERE THEY IN FACT MARRIED?

    Because if they were, that may change the situation.


    OK, read the 'other' thread. You're sure they weren't married, so it's a claim under the dependency act. You're right, your father could have married her, or left a will. But I can understand her feeling 'entitled', they were together for a substantial chunk of time. I'm not saying she is ...
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Yeah I fully respect... and expect what she is doing... thats why I am the least angry out of everyone that knows about my situation and my mom.. because she is trying to get what she can when my father left her with no provisions.;.... Maybe even made promises and took advantage of her.

    Happens all the time in this country with bringing a non english speaking person, getting a sham marriage and not getting it registered.

    At the same time, I've got to fight for what I believe is rightfully mine, given how much Ive bent over backwards to upkeep this house when my father didnt pay a penny.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 16th Jun 19, 12:21 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    What did the divorce settlement say about who pays the interest on the mortgage?
    Originally posted by getmore4less

    Thats a good question, some papers might have got lost in the sand of time with my mom as these date back to 1998... it's possible that my mom was being responsible for those payment as she was paying them... but more accurately she was receiving DSS/benefits to pay the monthly interest component following divorce proceedings and father leaving the property.

    Then when I started working, they stopped that based on the household income etc.. and I started paying it.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 16th Jun 19, 12:23 PM
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    Sea Shell
    Which was the "sham" marriage???
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
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