On-grid domestic battery storage

ard123en · 4 April 2018 at 11:05AM

just had a message from a company called Moiaxa selling their 3kWh solutions its over £3k !!!!!

more than £1k for kWh cant imagine many takers at that price

NigeWick · 4 April 2018 at 12:08PM

ard123en wrote: »

just had a message from a company called Moiaxa selling their 3kWh solutions its over £3k !!!!!

more than £1k for kWh cant imagine many takers at that price

Neither can I.

I get my TP2 in two or three weeks and that 13.5kWh will work out at about £500 per kWh installed.

Martyn1981 · 4 April 2018 at 4:52PM

I've been wanting to post a mention of Sonnen Batteries for some time, but can't find any costs or info, so just to say that this company is expanding fast and supplying (so they claim) high quality batts.

They are good for 10+yrs and 10,000 cycles, but are apparently quite expensive, so it was just a mention to file them away in memory, and post a general link just for reference.

Sonnen Batts.

Martyn1981 · 4 April 2018 at 5:38PM

More a side issue, but this might help with the rollout of battery storage, is that the commercial side is now considering storage as part of their efficiency drives.

Battery storage on C&I radar

Battery storage is of growing interest to commercial and industrial (C&I) entities, but the wider energy efficiency sector has seen Brexit and other policy woes send confidence to new lows.

Those were the findings from the most recent Energy Efficiency Trends survey, conducted quarterly by EEVS Insight and Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

Those results, for Q4 2017, included battery storage technologies for the first time and concluded that 10% of commercial and industrial enterprises surveyed including them in energy efficiency projects commissioned within the three month period ended 31 December 2017.

Those survey results would appear to substantiate growing confidence within the UK’s renewables and storage industries that the C&I sector has developed an appetite for battery storage. Sentiment expressed at both Solar Media’s Energy Storage Summit in February and last month’s Energy Storage Europe show in Dusseldorf, compiled by sister publication Energy-Storage.News, was that the C&I sector was the one to watch in 2018.

Exiled_Tyke · 15 April 2018 at 10:35AM

I know I'm out of my depth here, so others can correct me if I'm wrong. According to this article:

http://www.alphr.com/tesla/1003563/tesla-powerwall-2-uk-price-specs-release-date

A 14Kwh Powerwall2 now costs around £7k to install. If I set a cut off price of 10ppKwh (i.e. I'll buy if the price of stored leccy is less than this price) then payback occurs at 5000 cycles. Now this is beginning to look feasible.

But I have a further concern. IF I assume that I can run one complete cycle a day - to get me from PV production hours through the evening, and I also assume that there are an average of 200 days a year that this is achievable with reasonable production levels. Then the payback period I reckon is 25 years. Which now looks like the systems will never really cover it's costs. The only way forward is to be able to buy off peak leccy during the day and sell it back during the evening - but would it even be able to discharge to grid at an adequate rate while I have my oven, kettle and possibly ASHP running?

orrery · 15 April 2018 at 10:59AM

I've not seen an analysis that makes it pay yet. It will start to work when renewables drive the electricity prices down towards zero or negative, and the utilities start to provide serious 'time of day' tariffs.

At this point, the utilities are likely to provide the batteries for low or no cost provided they have access to the power.

The cost of the batteries is also on a downward curve, but at the moment electric car deliveries appear to be extending, presumably because of battery supply shortages - not the sort of conditions that will lead to cheaper home batteries in the short term.

Martyn1981 · 15 April 2018 at 12:06PM

I agree, the prices are too high at the moment, and with the chance of them falling soon, any leccy savings will be outweighed by lost batt price savings.

As the market for renting the storage from battery for grid support grows that may well make it viable when household use just isn't enough.

I also worked out that for 6 months of the year, the unused amount of batt capacity would be enough to support an EV driven 8,000 miles pa, so 4,000 miles during the better months, and 1,000kWh's. So that's another potential bonus, and now I'm enjoying the heat pump at home, a batt would help to smooth out demand and supply issues, and also allow for more evening heating when the sun has set.

So, the future for batts could be very rosey if I (and you) can make better use of it through multiple roles.

Good in theory, but need to see how things progress.

Edit -BTW, there's a small error in the article, the giant Aussie batt farm used Powerpack 2's, not Powerwall 2's. Not really important, but just to note there are small(ish) domestic Powerwalls (13.5kWh/5kW), and huge commercial Powerpacks (210kWh/50kW):

After a huge 100-megawatt battery array, made of dozens of Powerwall 2s connected together, was switched on alongside the Neoen Hornsdale windfarm near Jamestown recently, a follow-up project was announced for Adelaide in April.

and to support what orrery has said about battery shortages, the Hornsdale Powerpacks used Samsung batts, not Panasonics as Tesla simply disn't have enough spare (thanks partly to humanitarian work/donations for Puerto Rico).

zeupater · 15 April 2018 at 1:49PM

Exiled_Tyke wrote: »

I know I'm out of my depth here, so others can correct me if I'm wrong. According to this article:

http://www.alphr.com/tesla/1003563/tesla-powerwall-2-uk-price-specs-release-date

A 14Kwh Powerwall2 now costs around £7k to install. If I set a cut off price of 10ppKwh (i.e. I'll buy if the price of stored leccy is less than this price) then payback occurs at 5000 cycles. Now this is beginning to look feasible.

But I have a further concern. IF I assume that I can run one complete cycle a day - to get me from PV production hours through the evening, and I also assume that there are an average of 200 days a year that this is achievable with reasonable production levels. Then the payback period I reckon is 25 years. Which now looks like the systems will never really cover it's costs. The only way forward is to be able to buy off peak leccy during the day and sell it back during the evening - but would it even be able to discharge to grid at an adequate rate while I have my oven, kettle and possibly ASHP running?

Hi

I expect the home battery system market to remain very slow until fully installed prices fall below £150/kWh and growth to accelerate quickly as prices approach £100/kWh.

The Tesla Powerwall2 seems to provide the best cost/capacity offering at the moment at ~£450/kWh but that is skewed by an entry-level capacity which is likely far too large for many UK homes ... effectively, if you're paying £450/kWh capacity because it offers the best value but only ever use less than 50% of what's available, you're really paying north of £1000/kWh making the system far less attractive .... there was an article last year covering this issue mentioned in this earlier post ...

zeupater wrote: »

Hi All

Different but interesting analysis of Tesla's decision to seriously upsize the storage capacity for their Powerwall domestic battery.

Tesla Powerwall 2 - Business brilliance or a concept in need of a reality check ?

HTH
Z

I do note that since the original Powerwall announcements there has been promise of falling prices, but home battery prices from various manufacturers seem to have either remained constant or, in some cases, even increased despite a consistent global reduction in rechargeable cell supply costs ... it would seem that the push for electrification of the automotive sector & high profile (/high value) grid-scale installations has diverted attention from the domestic sector for the moment ...

HTH
Z

Martyn1981 · 15 April 2018 at 5:20PM

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I do note that since the original Powerwall announcements there has been promise of falling prices, but home battery prices from various manufacturers seem to have either remained constant or, in some cases, even increased despite a consistent global reduction in rechargeable cell supply costs ... it would seem that the push for electrification of the automotive sector & high profile (/high value) grid-scale installations has diverted attention from the domestic sector for the moment ...

HTH
Z

Yep. Good news though is that if there's a market, someone will build out the capacity to meet it, and with both Tesla and Sonnen planning to install 10's of thousands of domestic batts in Australia, many as virtual 'giant distribution side batts', then we could see a rollout of more factories ...... but again, EV's are accelerating (s'cuse the pun) ever faster too. Great news, and fun to watch, but might mean we don't get our 'cheap' batts till well after 2020.

I'm still thinking that there could be a PWII price drop announcement any day, perhaps 20%, but at the same time, why would they if demand is outstripping supply. So frustrating.

orrery · 15 April 2018 at 5:37PM

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I'm still thinking that there could be a PWII price drop announcement any day, perhaps 20%, but at the same time, why would they if demand is outstripping supply. So frustrating.

The price reductions do keep coming, but in price/kWh terms.

There has been very little price change in the Nissan Leaf as it has moved from 24kWh > 30kWh > 40kWh.

There are several 'Giga factories' under construction (I saw an estimate of 22 mainly in China) and I don't think we will see any reductions until they come on-line. Timescale? Your guess is as good as mine.

Longer term, the Grid scale batteries are likely to be a different technology - Flow Batteries.

On-grid domestic battery storage

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