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  • FIRST POST
    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 3rd Sep 19, 10:11 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 3Thanks
    luizarios4
    King Street Car Park, Wigan - HX car park management - overstay vs grace period
    • #1
    • 3rd Sep 19, 10:11 PM
    King Street Car Park, Wigan - HX car park management - overstay vs grace period 3rd Sep 19 at 10:11 PM
    Got a letter from Gladstone so preparing my defense. I appealed to HX and the IAS, lost the appeals as expected.

    I parked in the car park and paid for 1 hour. Between the moment the car arrived and left, it took 1 hour and 19 minutes. I was driving for the first time after a C-section, so especially slow and had with me a 2 months old baby I had to remove from the car seat, dress in outside clothes (cold day), unfold a pram, place baby on the pram. On arrival, I had to remove the baby from the pram, remove outside clothes, place in the car seat, fold-out the pram and fit the pram back in the car boot. It was my first outing with a baby so I took longer than I do nowadays but I couldn't just drive off without making sure baby was safe. Additionally, there was a car reversing behind me so I had to wait and a small queue of cars leaving, adding to the time.

    Timeline:
    • I arrived at 09:23
    • ticket timestamp is 9:29 (6 minutes after the car entered the park)
    • expiring time is 10:29
    • camera clocked the car leaving at 10:42 (13 minutes after ticket expired)

    I have three lines of defense and I wonder if I should mention all 3 or pick just one? They are:

    1- HX said they have a 10 minutes arrival grace period and 10 minutes leaving grace period, therefore that's 20 minutes in total. Between leaving and arriving there are 1 hour and 19 minutes therefore only 19 minutes over which IS within the 20 minutes grace period. That's the defense I used on my appeal after reading some posts on this forum where other people used this argument and won the appeal. However, HX didn't accept adding both grace periods together and insists that they have to be looked at separately as such: 6 minutes of the arrival grace period, OK. 13 minutes leaving grace period: 3 minutes overstay. Could someone advise if they're allowed to separate both the grace period this way just because it's to their advantage? I argued that due to my special circumstances (2 months baby and C-section) an extra 3 minutes would be a very reasonable extra amount of time. Appeal denied, as expected.

    2- Second line of defense would be to claim that although IPC code of practice states an arriving and leaving grace period should be allowed but doesn't state how long. HX-Management website DOES NOT have the 10 minutes grace period stated on their terms and conditions. That means the duration of the grace period is open as IPC CoP simply states:

    Grace Periods
    15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
    they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
    15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid permitted period of parking has expired.
    Then argue that 13 minutes was a very reasonable amount of time considering all I had to do to get a 2 months old baby ready to leave and considering I was myself very slow after a recent C-section. Additionally, there was a car reversing off just before me, I had to wait, and a queue to leave, I had to wait a bit more. Then hope the judge sides with me and find 13 minutes a reasonable amount of it.

    3- Last line of defense would be to argue I wasn't given a fair appeal. I did appeal to IAS (I know the NEWBIES thread tells me not to). On their reply they say:

    It is the driver's responsibility to ensure they pay for a sufficient parking period to include getting back to their vehicle and taking whatever steps need to be taken to leave the car park. As the driver did not do so in this case, the driver was parked in breach of the displayed terms and conditions and as such I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued on this occasion.
    The statement above, from their decision letter, clearly goes against IPC CoP (quoted above on 2.) which clearly states that drivers should be allowed sufficient time to leave a site after the permit has expired. The fact that IAS used such a poor argument to deny my appeal shows that they're either not knowledgeable enough to be the adjudicator or too biased to be an independent adjudicator and therefore I haven't been given a fair appeal.

    So, would you guys use all the three line of defenses above or pick only one? If so, which one seems stronger to you?

    Important question: I know you'll not know if I'll win or not, it's up to the judge. But from someone who's seen a lot of cases, would you say that my case is:
    a)strong and likely to win
    b)half and half
    c)a long shot and you will probably lose
    (I do pay court fees so I'd rather cut my losses and pay 160 if my chances are little).


    Thank you very much for all your help
    Last edited by luizarios4; 03-09-2019 at 10:13 PM. Reason: grammar mistake
Page 1
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 4th Sep 19, 9:51 AM
    • 7,493 Posts
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    Le_Kirk
    • #2
    • 4th Sep 19, 9:51 AM
    • #2
    • 4th Sep 19, 9:51 AM
    You need to read the NEWBIE sticky and in particular post # 2, where you will find 17 pre-written defence examples, pick one that most closely suits your circumstances and adapt it to fit. Most defences (note spelling, we are in UK) rely on signage, grace periods, landowner authority, I did pay, I have a permit etc. You can also search the forum for a thread by beamerguy (with a comment at post # 14 of that thread by Coupon-mad) about Abuse of Process and add those points into your defence. you might also like to investigate the Equality Act 2010 for help with an area where new mothers - especially those still breastfeeding - should be afforded more time, i.e. a longer grace period.
    Last edited by Le_Kirk; 04-09-2019 at 9:54 AM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 4th Sep 19, 10:06 AM
    • 12,937 Posts
    • 18,231 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 4th Sep 19, 10:06 AM
    • #3
    • 4th Sep 19, 10:06 AM
    Well of course the IAS would reject it because it's a scam set up by Gladstones solicitors.

    No surprise that Gladstones are now trying to scam you

    ABUSE OF PROCESS
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6014081

    Just based on what you say, Gladstones would be plain stupid to take this into court, they are highly incompetent at the best of times.
    They seem to "get off" by being whooped in court
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 11th Sep 19, 11:43 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    luizarios4
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 19, 11:43 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 19, 11:43 PM
    So I'm thinking of naming the driver to 'reset' the clock and give myself more time (I do have a baby to look after so really busy right now). Someone has mentioned in a previous forum ''If the notices aren't POFA compliant then only the driver is liable. If they don't know who that is then good luck.''

    I've checked to see if they're POFA compliant and I think unfortunately they are. Could someone double-check it? Could really do with an extra pair of eyes to make sure I've not missed anything.

    Thank you!


    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 18th Sep 19, 10:54 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    luizarios4
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 19, 10:54 PM
    Bumping
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 19, 10:54 PM
    Wondering if someone could help with above post? Many thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 19, 8:44 AM
    • 26,026 Posts
    • 42,304 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 19th Sep 19, 8:44 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Sep 19, 8:44 AM
    The NtK is PoFA compliant, meaning they can hold the keeper liable in the absence of knowing who the driver was.

    However, the keeper can only be liable for the parking charge outlined in the NtK - 100 (not the try-on extra 60) plus any court costs (25) and solicitor fees (capped 50).

    Naming the driver exposes them to greater costs, although probably not much more than the above.

    Is the driver up for handling the charges brought against them, or are they going to argue it wasn't them, throwing this all back in your lap again?
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • 1505grandad
    • By 1505grandad 19th Sep 19, 8:52 AM
    • 402 Posts
    • 630 Thanks
    1505grandad
    • #7
    • 19th Sep 19, 8:52 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Sep 19, 8:52 AM
    Presumably you are the Defendant and also the registered keeper and from your opening post also the driver.

    I cannot see how you can therefore "reset the clock" by naming the driver.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Sep 19, 9:10 AM
    • 15,955 Posts
    • 16,740 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 19th Sep 19, 9:10 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Sep 19, 9:10 AM
    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 19, 9:31 AM
    • 26,026 Posts
    • 42,304 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 19th Sep 19, 9:31 AM
    • #9
    • 19th Sep 19, 9:31 AM
    Presumably you are the Defendant and also the registered keeper and from your opening post also the driver.

    I cannot see how you can therefore "reset the clock" by naming the driver.
    Originally posted by 1505grandad
    I think the NtK is to her husband, she was driving. I've just realised there are a number of threads about this, so answering this question on this thread is without context and confusion is setting in.

    @OP - please ask a Board Guide (via PM) to merge all your threads before you start receiving inappropriate advice due to not having context immediately available.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 19-09-2019 at 9:35 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Sep 19, 9:40 AM
    • 79,072 Posts
    • 92,894 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So I'm thinking of naming the driver to 'reset' the clock and give myself more time (I do have a baby to look after so really busy right now).
    If the registered keeper has not got a claim yet, then thy can give the name & address of the driver if that's a different person (you?).

    I would certainly do this if you are the more robust person to defend this in court and/or if the rk prefers to be out of the loop and you are up for it!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 2nd Oct 19, 1:53 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    luizarios4
    that's correct, my husband is the keeper, I am the driver. He's not really interested, I wrote all appeals and did all research for him, he doesn't want to turn up for court. During the appeal process, as I couldn't name the driver I couldn't show evidence such as birth certificate, breastfeeding reports etc as to not name the driver.

    how do I name the driver? do I write to HX Car Park, Gladstone or somebody else? Are they forced to accept it or is it a too late case?

    also, if we were to pay the 100 they want, would we be able to pay in 10 installments of 10?

    Many thanks,
    Last edited by luizarios4; 02-10-2019 at 1:56 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 19, 2:01 AM
    • 79,072 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    What makes you think YOU can name the driver? That's not what I said. This does not come from YOU - read the POFA, the KEEPER names the driver, name & address.

    Stop delaying it, or he will get a claim soon.

    You want to be the person handling it don't you, so he names you (+ address).

    Stop thinking about paying the scam.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 2nd Dec 19, 4:50 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    luizarios4
    The keeper sent a signed letter to HX management naming the driver, we also emailed Gladstone, to let them know the driver had been name to HX (we were still on the pre-action stage and we replied within the 30 days timeframe they gave us to reply). That was over 1 month ago and never heard back from HX. Today we got an email from Gladstone saying they've taken over matter so I have to name the driver to them (Gladstone), that's fine however here's a small complication:

    we are going abroad to South America, it could be a few months, could be an year or could be permanent, right now we only have one-way tickets for both the keeper and the driver. I'm guessing in my next letter I'll name the driver and add the south American address for both of us? As South American post is highly unpredictable and loses everything, can I ask them to use 'signed for' on any letter they wish to send? Should I attach the one way tickets as proof? I'm guessing they can't serve court papers while we're abroad is that correct? Therefore they can't start any proceedings while we're abroad?

    as we don't know lenght of stay, we'll be leaving mortgage house and all accounts open in England, in case we decide to return, but the car the PCN was related to has been sold. can they refuse to change the address based on this?

    thanks
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 2nd Dec 19, 5:44 PM
    • 7,493 Posts
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    Le_Kirk
    You write to the PPC (probably best to write to the DPO as well) informing them that as of DD/MM/YY your address for service is xxxxxx and they must ERASE your old data.
    • luizarios4
    • By luizarios4 3rd Dec 19, 2:28 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    luizarios4
    and how would it work if they wish to take things to small claim court while I'm abroad, can they have a small claim court and force me to come home for it or do they have to serve me while abroad? thanks
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 3rd Dec 19, 8:58 AM
    • 7,493 Posts
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    Le_Kirk
    The point of giving them and address overseas is to make it difficult/impossible for them to start a claim as it would have to be held in your local court!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 19, 9:06 AM
    • 25,794 Posts
    • 33,189 Thanks
    Redx
    No they cannot force you to come back to the UK , it's a civil matter only , a private dispute over money

    The vehicle being sold is irrelevant

    The change of address to a foreign one should make them put this on the too difficult pile , but ensure your mail is opened here in the UK to avoid issues arising

    Just use the GDPR , the driver gives the address in Buenos Aires or wherever , then both of you can forget about it , but keep any letters that may arrive , getting on with your new lives in a new country
    Last edited by Redx; 03-12-2019 at 9:09 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Dec 19, 9:11 AM
    • 15,955 Posts
    • 16,740 Thanks
    The Deep
    Serving a writ abroad is incredibly expensive, it involves the Foreign Office, real solicitors and often a consular officer o. abroad. I was British Consul in Houston and had to serve a writ in Alberqueque, a two hour flight away. It cost the claimant over 2000 for my time alone.

    some reading

    https://www.nursingtimes.net/roles/nurse-managers/how-the-equality-act-affects-you-14-01-2011/

    http://www.dealbreastfeedingsupportgroup.co.uk/equality.html
    Last edited by The Deep; 03-12-2019 at 9:21 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Dec 19, 10:13 AM
    • 5,960 Posts
    • 7,743 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    OP - did you give the name AND serviceable address back in October? yes or NO

    Because you then state you uwould again "name the driver" - I dont know why you need to do that?

    As for telling Gladstones - nope, no need. Youve told their principal, which is all POFA2012 caresa about. You can tell Gladstones to FRO if you want.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Dec 19, 1:16 PM
    • 79,072 Posts
    • 92,894 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Dunno, surely better to name the driver now, giving the South American address for service for both of you and they can then go swivel.

    I'm guessing in my next letter I'll name the driver and add the south American address for both of us? As South American post is highly unpredictable and loses everything, can I ask them to use 'signed for' on any letter they wish to send? Should I attach the one way tickets as proof?
    Yes - I would indeed send that and proof so there can be no rubbishy accusations that the address is too convenient/untrue.

    But if you are not actually flying out till, say, 6th January, then reply as late as possible to Gladstones. How long does the letter give you to reply and is the flight to South America imminent? Time it well, to avoid them filing a quick claim!

    Oh, and for their purposes, tell them that this is now your permanent domicile.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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