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  • FIRST POST
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 15th Apr 19, 8:16 PM
    • 218Posts
    • 29Thanks
    CYPER
    False work reference and possible redress
    • #1
    • 15th Apr 19, 8:16 PM
    False work reference and possible redress 15th Apr 19 at 8:16 PM
    Hi all,

    A friend of mine received a reference, which contains false information, so it is not a true, accurate and fair reflection of her employment.

    I have 2 questions:

    1 - Is ACAS>Employment Tribunal the right way for redress?
    2 - Do you need to have subsequent job opportunities negativelly affected by said reference in order to have a valid claim?

    Thank you.
Page 2
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 11:17 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    I don't see any merits in ACAS or ET. Not to say there are no grounds for complaint if your friend believes they have been libelled.....would need to seek legal advice on that.

    Personally I would be contacting the former employer HR department highlighting the false information in the reference given by the manager and wanting reassurances that any future reference would be accurate otherwise you will commence legal action.
    Originally posted by BoGoF
    Thank you for your opinion. I will most definitely contact HR, but I am almost certain that they will not do anything, but ignore us.
    The manager in question did not even let HR know that my friend has resigned, HR found out from me. So she was effectively still employed there a month after she left.
    The company she worked for was recently bought by a bigger company, so it's a new HR department I guess.

    Why do people do this?

    If the job offer is conditional on references you wait till they have been obtained and the job offer is no longer conditional then you resign and arrange a start date.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I am not sure what you mean.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 16th Apr 19, 11:25 AM
    • 6,451 Posts
    • 7,171 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    There has been no financial loss, and the reference didn't affect the outcome of the job application. On that basis I can't see that ACAS or any other legal body will be interested in what is really a fairly minor squabble between a company and a former employee.
    Is it possible that the concern is that the 'friend' doesn't want to use their apparently very short term new employer for future references and is worried about another negative reference from the former employer?
    • McKneff
    • By McKneff 16th Apr 19, 11:25 AM
    • 36,533 Posts
    • 47,112 Thanks
    McKneff
    You say she and her, then you say 'we', then you say 'I'

    What an absolute waste of time.

    Does she know you are plastering her personal info all over the internst.

    Lastly , you cant be much of a 'legal' eagle if you have to come on here and ask basic common sense questions.
    Last edited by McKneff; 16-04-2019 at 11:29 AM.
    make the most of it, we are only here for the weekend.
    and we will never, ever return.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 11:44 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    Is it possible that the concern is that the 'friend' doesn't want to use their apparently very short term new employer for future references and is worried about another negative reference from the former employer?
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    Yes that is the concern, because it is very likely to happen again.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 11:46 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    You say she and her, then you say 'we', then you say 'I'

    What an absolute waste of time.

    Does she know you are plastering her personal info all over the internst.

    Lastly , you cant be much of a 'legal' eagle if you have to come on here and ask basic common sense questions.
    Originally posted by McKneff
    Were you forced to waste your own time by reading this topic or was this a conscious decision of yours?
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 16th Apr 19, 11:48 AM
    • 4,566 Posts
    • 4,184 Thanks
    BoGoF
    Get your friend to submit a request to them under GDPR requesting all information they hold on them.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 16th Apr 19, 11:53 AM
    • 4,375 Posts
    • 11,578 Thanks
    LilElvis
    Yes that is the concern, because it is very likely to happen again.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    Why would it happen again if 1) HR are made aware of the reference that their employee supplied, presumably without their knowledge or agreement 2) the company has a new HR department with no interest in creating a vendetta against a former employee. Why would HR create a headache for themselves over an insignificant former employee? It would make no sense. It won't happen.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 11:53 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    Get your friend to submit a request to them under GDPR requesting all information they hold on them.
    Originally posted by BoGoF
    SAR was something I am considering as a retribution if HR shows no care at all.
    Will see how this will play out.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 11:57 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    Why would it happen again if 1) HR are made aware of the reference that their employee supplied, presumably without their knowledge or agreement 2) the company has a new HR department with no interest in creating a vendetta against a former employee. Why would HR create a headache for themselves over an insignificant former employee? It would make no sense. It won't happen.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Now that you put it this way it makes sense. But then again if a future employer needs a reference my friend should give the HR email address, who will most probably provide a short one just confirming dates and other factual information.

    Hopefully HR sees what the manager has done and do something about it, because it is unfair.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 16th Apr 19, 12:19 PM
    • 5,949 Posts
    • 10,190 Thanks
    Gavin83
    Hence my original question: Do you need to have subsequent job opportunities negatively affected by said reference in order to have a valid claim?

    It sounds like just giving a false reference in itself is not an issue, unless you have been negatively affected by it?

    The false elements of the reference are disciplinary actions which never occurred + performance issues which were never communicated to her + other bits too.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    In answer to your second question yes, in reality you need to have been negatively affected by the false reference to do anything about it. It doesn't sound like it's been the case here, although if it's an issue in the future you can of course revisit it.

    Just be careful here. You won't win a case based on performance issues being mentioned regardless of them communicating this, it's a subjective comment. If they've said she was subject to disciplinary procedures when she wasn't you might have more of a case.

    Was the disciplinary action in any way related to the notice issues you mentioned and therefore conducted once she left? If so that may well muddy the waters somewhat.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 2:09 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    In answer to your second question yes, in reality you need to have been negatively affected by the false reference to do anything about it. It doesn't sound like it's been the case here, although if it's an issue in the future you can of course revisit it.

    Just be careful here. You won't win a case based on performance issues being mentioned regardless of them communicating this, it's a subjective comment. If they've said she was subject to disciplinary procedures when she wasn't you might have more of a case.

    Was the disciplinary action in any way related to the notice issues you mentioned and therefore conducted once she left? If so that may well muddy the waters somewhat.
    Originally posted by Gavin83
    No, the term disciplinary was just mentioned on the reference for the first time and was later confirmed by the manager who gave the reference that it was in relation to something that happened in the past. But the employee was never told/explained at that moment in time it was part of disciplinary action.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 16th Apr 19, 2:23 PM
    • 6,451 Posts
    • 7,171 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    When your friend applies for another job are they going to omit the current, short term employer? If so aren't they basically just as guilty of providing false information as the former employer allegedly was?
    If they are going to include the new employer there is no reason to worry about what a previous employer said.
    • CYPER
    • By CYPER 16th Apr 19, 2:31 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CYPER
    When your friend applies for another job are they going to omit the current, short term employer? If so aren't they basically just as guilty of providing false information as the former employer allegedly was?
    If they are going to include the new employer there is no reason to worry about what a previous employer said.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    The current employment is for a couple of months only and because it is a short period of time is likely for any new employer to request references from both places.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 16th Apr 19, 2:39 PM
    • 7,351 Posts
    • 9,591 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    Your friend would have to show that she had suffered loss.

    If the old employer has an HR department then her best course of action may be to contact HR, and ask them to confirm that they will provide a factual reference if asked to do so. This may be limited to setting out the dates she worked there and her job title.

    She cpould also request a copy of her employee file which should show what if any disciplinary rcord there is.

    It is of course possible that she was given verbal warnigns which wer eclassd as isciplinary even if she did not see them as such at the time.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 16th Apr 19, 2:42 PM
    • 4,375 Posts
    • 11,578 Thanks
    LilElvis
    The current employment is for a couple of months only and because it is a short period of time is likely for any new employer to request references from both places.
    Originally posted by CYPER
    A future employer may be very interested in receiving a reference from the more recent, short lived employment. An employment may be short for a number of "red flag" reasons - lack of commitment by the employee, disciplinary, not up to the role. It's up to your friend how she wishes to explain her short tenure and the reason why she doesn't wish to use them as a reference.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 16th Apr 19, 11:18 PM
    • 5,488 Posts
    • 7,691 Thanks
    Kynthia
    A future employer may be very interested in receiving a reference from the more recent, short lived employment. An employment may be short for a number of "red flag" reasons - lack of commitment by the employee, disciplinary, not up to the role. It's up to your friend how she wishes to explain her short tenure and the reason why she doesn't wish to use them as a reference.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    The OP didn't say her friend wasn't going to use her current employer for a reference. She said it was likely a future employer would want references from both the current and previous employers due to the fact this was a brief employment.

    It would then be be a dreadful worry to go to all the effort of finding a decent role, going through the application and the interview process, all the while knowing you may get another false reference that loses you the job offer. So I can definitely understand wanting to do something now to prevent that.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 17th Apr 19, 10:08 PM
    • 2,458 Posts
    • 2,089 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    As I think Bogoff and LilElvis have said, your friend needs to contact her previous employer and point out the hopefully obvious errors and libellous statements in the reference provided by her ex-manager. (I once had to do this regarding an oral reference given over the telephone. I put the fear of god in them - it was a county council.)


    Also try SAR/GDPR route.


    Just one thing - how far these days are references confidential? I know that when I had to challenge mine my then current manager would not tell me what had actually been said about me, but he said I needed to challenge it as it obviously was not true.
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 17-04-2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: clarification
    • keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • By keepcalmandstayoutofdebt 18th Apr 19, 9:43 PM
    • 3,610 Posts
    • 1,908 Thanks
    keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    Well I had an interesting week. Turned out I had a problem with references, a certain courier company and their franchise instead of refusing to provide wants to claim I never worked for them. They have no record �� it's certainly a new way to do things! not sure how that works with available tax records.

    Still their shabby record keeping didn't totally stop me passing stage 1.
    I would SAR some of my previous employers but the truth could still be the courier company didn't respond then either.

    # Be more careful who you work for.
    RIP my Rags. 16/06/19 at 4am
    Know I had to moneysave but you didn't have to go
    x
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