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  • FIRST POST
    • sadders
    • By sadders 12th Jan 18, 8:59 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 9Thanks
    sadders
    Dismissed on the grounds of redundancy
    • #1
    • 12th Jan 18, 8:59 PM
    Dismissed on the grounds of redundancy 12th Jan 18 at 8:59 PM
    I work for the NHS and my position is being made redundant. I have been offered suitable alternative employment which I turned down for versions reasons that I outlined in my formal refusal.

    Before I refused I asked for a meeting without predudice. I had two, the first with a senior manager and then with her superior. I was essentially told that they felt the offer was suitable and if I refused it I would be making myself unemployed. There would be no offer of redundancy.

    I have just had a formal letter to invite me to a formal notice of redundancy meeting.

    In the letter was the following sentence:

    Regrettably, I must advise you that the outcome of this meeting is likely to be that you will be issued with formal notice of your dismissal on the grounds of redundancy.

    What exactly does this mean? Will there be a formal redundancy with payment or am I just losing my job?

    With thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • anniecave
    • By anniecave 12th Jan 18, 9:06 PM
    • 2,183 Posts
    • 700 Thanks
    anniecave
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:06 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:06 PM
    That sounds like a standard letter, as that says they are the starting redundancy process for you?
    Indecision is the key to flexibility.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,935 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    Are u in a union?

    Why is the role not suitable?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Jan 18, 9:36 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 7,619 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:36 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:36 PM
    Redundancy and redundancy pay are two entirely different things. You can be dismissed on the basis of redundancy. That is a reason for dismissal. It does not entitle you to redundancy pay. That is a separate matter. If your employer says that you have unreasonably turned down an offer of suitable alternative employment, they can refuse redundancy pay, but you are still dismissed on the grounds of redundancy. If you disagree, your only option is a tribunal. Only they can determine whether your refusal was reasonable or not if you and the employer cannot agree.
    • sulphate
    • By sulphate 12th Jan 18, 9:41 PM
    • 1,165 Posts
    • 3,374 Thanks
    sulphate
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:41 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 18, 9:41 PM
    What youíve been told sounds pretty standard - redundancy payments are only given if there is no suitable alternative employment. As youíve had a suitable offer and declined there will be no redundancy payment, although you will be made redundant/lose your job.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 9:55 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 9:55 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 9:55 AM
    So an employer can offer you any SAE. It is their opinion as to its suitability. No experts of independent people involved. The employee though can only prove its lack of suitably through(a very expensive) tribunal?

    Seems like the deck is loaded.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    • 31,900 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    You should make it clear in the meeting that you will still be looking for suitable alternatives during the notice period.

    You should also still have the option to take the job they consider suitable on a 4 week trial.

    That gives both sides time to reassess suitability.
    If you still disagree you have the option to let an ET decide but worth saying why you think it is not suitable for opinion.

    If that job has now gone they should pay out if nothing else suitable turns up.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 13th Jan 18, 10:07 AM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,935 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:07 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:07 AM
    So an employer can offer you any SAE. It is their opinion as to its suitability. No experts of independent people involved. The employee though can only prove its lack of suitably through(a very expensive) tribunal?

    Seems like the deck is loaded.
    Originally posted by sadders
    No, try answering my questions......
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    One of the issues is that once I had been offered the job that I felt was unsuitable I went looking for an alternative. A job fell into my lap that I currently have a conditional offer for. It!!!8217;s a lower grade but less travel and more similar to the work I have been doing.

    At this point I expect no payment (despite my belief that I am entitled). As I can!!!8217;t afford to go to tribunal I just want to negotiate a quick exit.
    • IanSt
    • By IanSt 13th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    • 259 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    IanSt
    As you said in your original post

    I have been offered suitable alternative employment which I turned down for versions reasons that I outlined in my formal refusal.
    Originally posted by sadders
    So they've tried to find you suitable employment but you turned it down , so the employer hasn't just found you any old job.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    As you said in your original post



    So they've tried to find you suitable employment but you turned it down , so the employer hasn't just found you any old job.
    Originally posted by IanSt
    Itís a job in the same profession (podiatry). I have always practiced minor surgery and worked with musculoskeletal conditions (23 years) I have a masters degree in that area. The job offered is in diabetic high risk. Lower grade but 3 years pay protection. Would require complete retraining. Stay or leave it will !!!!!! up my career. Within one profession itís a completely opposite pathway.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 7,619 Thanks
    sangie595
    One of the issues is that once I had been offered the job that I felt was unsuitable I went looking for an alternative. A job fell into my lap that I currently have a conditional offer for. It!!!8217;s a lower grade but less travel and more similar to the work I have been doing.

    At this point I expect no payment (despite my belief that I am entitled). As I can!!!8217;t afford to go to tribunal I just want to negotiate a quick exit.
    Originally posted by sadders
    And now you are doubly screwed! You have another job. Before your statutory notice period begins. That means that you can't claim redundancy pay.

    Going to a tribunal doesn't cost anything now, but you are right that you can't afford to go- the employer has a slam dunk case, and you would be being litigatious - which might result in them pursuing you for costs.

    I'm afraid your belief is entirely wrong.


    BTW, I missed the suitable alternative. It is suitable. Sorry, you'd never win at tribunal. Three years pay protection is a clincher - six months pay protection would be sufficient for a tribunal. And additional training would make you more employable by increasing the number of areas of work you had available to you. I appreciate you may not want to do this, but the law disregards what you want. That would never be a factor in their decision making.
    Last edited by sangie595; 13-01-2018 at 11:01 AM.
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 13th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • 5,779 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    What costs exactly do you think you will incur taking them to a tribunal before the outcome?
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • Tigsteroonie
    • By Tigsteroonie 13th Jan 18, 11:27 AM
    • 22,655 Posts
    • 56,829 Thanks
    Tigsteroonie
    Do your internal processes define what grounds can be used to determine "suitability" of an alternative role? Ours do, and you're working for a similar sized organisation.

    What does the union say?
    Going to become Mrs Marleyboy for real in 2018

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    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Jan 18, 1:04 PM
    • 31,900 Posts
    • 19,121 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Best not to turn down jobs but to argue suitability in the first instance.

    If it is not an immediate fit and requires training there is scope for an extended trial period, you need to have the training schedule and the relevant assurances it will be funded.

    Is the new job NHS the best option is usually to retain continuous employment unless ready to exit and go private the a redundancy or MARS can work.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 5:48 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    As you said in your original post



    So they've tried to find you suitable employment but you turned it down , so the employer hasn't just found you any old job.
    Originally posted by IanSt
    Tried is a strong word. There was no offer of SAE until a lad on the band below me with a quite different role handed in his notice. I was offered his post within 24 hours.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 5:49 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    What costs exactly do you think you will incur taking them to a tribunal before the outcome?
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    I understand that tribunal is free but the cost of representation is expensive.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 5:57 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    The whole situation is getting me down and making me feel quite unwell.
    I know I will lose my job and not be compensated and feel extremely let down by my employers and union.

    I currently work 2 part time jobs. I now hate this one and dread going in feeling nauseous about it. I!!!8217;ve succumbed to calling in sick twice now. 20 years ago I suffered with post traumatic stress disorder and I recognize some of those symptoms in myself now. I love my other job but am worried that the stress of this situation will start to affect that one.

    I really just want out now as soon as possible. As a self protection thing. I would love some compensation as I will be on a lower income in the new job but my mental health is more important. The long build up to this (over 6months) has really had an effect.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jan 18, 7:11 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
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    sangie595
    Your union can't change the law. Nor can they change NHS policy. They aren't there to get you what you want. That is an impossible ask. They are there to ensure your legal and contractual rights are adhered to. They have been. You refused suitable alternative employment. You went off and found another job. They did neither of these things for you. So they haven't let you down.

    I'm sorry, but three years pay protection is one of the best deals in the world! Literally. An employment tribunal is likely to conclude that even 3 months would be a suitable alternative; 6 months certainly. And you had 3 years on offer. It may not be what you wanted, but as Had been explainedcv the law isn't about what you want. The employer is obliged by law and policy to do everything in their power to not make you redundant. I don't think you realise how fortunate you are. You have had multiple options. Most people have none.
    • sadders
    • By sadders 13th Jan 18, 7:52 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    sadders
    Your union can't change the law. Nor can they change NHS policy. They aren't there to get you what you want. That is an impossible ask. They are there to ensure your legal and contractual rights are adhered to. They have been. You refused suitable alternative employment. You went off and found another job. They did neither of these things for you. So they haven't let you down.

    I'm sorry, but three years pay protection is one of the best deals in the world! Literally. An employment tribunal is likely to conclude that even 3 months would be a suitable alternative; 6 months certainly. And you had 3 years on offer. It may not be what you wanted, but as Had been explainedcv the law isn't about what you want. The employer is obliged by law and policy to do everything in their power to not make you redundant. I don't think you realise how fortunate you are. You have had multiple options. Most people have none.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    I do understand this which is why I stated that I know that I wonít get any compensation.

    I am surprised there isnít more protection.

    Because some are in a worse position doesnít mean that I shouldnít feel agrieved about my situation. Race to the bottom?

    I donít feel the role offered is suitable as it will require me to throw away 23 years of training and experience and start retraining from scratch. Essentially !!!!!!s up my career. This is of more value to me than the pay protection. I know that the law doesnít seem to rate this as a factor.

    I intended to continue my career in this department possibly to retirement. I love(d) the people and the place so this does hurt a lot.

    The new job I applied for was only after the offer of alternative employment was made. Would prefer a pay loss to throwing away my knowledge and experience.

    Despite apparently having no legal rights in this I do have every right to feel royaly fíd off about it.
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