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  • FIRST POST
    Former MSE Penelope
    'Do you support Wednesday's strike?' poll
    • #1
    • 28th Nov 11, 12:11 PM
    'Do you support Wednesday's strike?' poll 28th Nov 11 at 12:11 PM
    Poll started 22 November 2011, click here to vote

    Do you support Wednesday's strike?

    On Wednesday, 23 public sector unions will strike over changes to their pensions. This is likely to impact many areas including schools, some NHS operations and passport checks (more info in BBC Q&A).

    Which of these is closest to your view (if you have more than one job/contract choose the one you spend most time on)

    I work in the public sector

    A. I fully support the strike
    B. I support it as it's democratic - but I would've voted / did vote against it
    C. I'm against the strike
    D. I don't know enough about it to decide

    I work in the private or charity sector

    A. I fully support the strike
    B. I support it as it's democratic - but I would've voted / did vote against it
    C. I'm against the strike
    D. I don't know enough about it to decide

    I don't work / am unemployed/ am retired

    A. I fully support the strike
    B. I support it as it's democratic - but would've voted against it myself
    C. I'm against the strike
    D. I don't know enough about it to decide



    Click reply to discuss
    Last edited by Former MSE Penelope; 28-11-2011 at 12:50 PM.
Page 5
  • starnight
    Your information is incorrect, the government confirmed in the commons today (when David Milliband attempted to make the same farcical point - he said that talks had ended early November) that they had talks with unions yesterday, they had talks today and will be having talks tomorrow, that is fact not conjecture.
    Originally posted by Saetana
    Yes you are you correct, the government met with the unions, AFTER a few weeks of not wanting to discuss anymore. Even Cameron said they met at start of November, them 1 DAY before strike action, he did not admit to having any meeting inbetween those 2 dates. Therefore not farcical point, they did not meet with the unions until it was too lete.
  • studioeng
    When are we as a society going to stop fighting amongst ourselves and start attacking the people who really are the problem. No one cares about anyone else any more, everyone is out to shaft and out-do everyone else. Why is it, when people offer, others will take the p**s and try to take everything they can... Is this survival of the fittest? I didn't think we were animals.

    It's of no importance which sector I work in, it really doesn't matter. You can just continue to throw political mumbo jumbo around, but at the end of the day we're all getting treated badly and told it's for our own good... When will people unite and start to stand up to it!? ... Never!!

    Let's see how many people disagree with my opinion... Let the flame wars begin.
    Last edited by studioeng; 01-12-2011 at 2:34 PM.
  • RealQuantum
    I have to say that most people would have predicted that the polls would end up like this.
    I work in the ‘public sector’ and I have to say that one thing that is not being made clear, is that although Local Government Employees are technically public sector they have different conditions to ‘Civil Servants’.

    Local Government Employees pensions are in fact on the open market and pay for themselves. Which as you can imagine costs you the tax payer nothing. We pay 6% of our annual salary in and its match by the money generated by the stock/bonds we pay into. This is not the case for Civil Service, they get a contribution direct from the tax payer of which they pay 5% and get 10% from the employer, in this case the tax payer.
    I feel that it’s a little unfair that all public sector workers are being tarred with the same brush.
    Something that should be raised that in this age of so called equality why do some ‘public sector’ workers clearly have better condition than others?

    Perhaps some questions that should also be asked are is the government pushing for strike action? How much does this save in salaries? Was it a nudge when they announced the 1% wage increase fix?
    I have ideas for savings but wouldn't put them on here for fear of losing my job.

    Thanks all
    Last edited by RealQuantum; 02-12-2011 at 10:48 AM.
    • cattie1
    • By cattie1 1st Dec 11, 7:41 PM
    • 2,024 Posts
    • 2,551 Thanks
    cattie1
    just to say to all you teachers dont complain that we are bad parents when we take our children out of school for a day for family things because it ruins their education you cant have it both ways
    Originally posted by craftynutters
    I got a letter from the school TODAY, which reads

    "Please may I remind parents that wherever possiblechildren should NOT be taken out of school during term time, as this not only disrupts pupil's learning, but may also result in a pupils absence being recognised as unauthorised, Thank-you for your support in this matter"

    Oh the irony! Should probably follow their own rules!!
    official dfw nerd club member no 214
    Proud to be dealing with my debts!
    Why is a person that handles your money called a broker?!:confused:
    • loops298
    • By loops298 1st Dec 11, 7:46 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    loops298
    we also dont get other perks that I know people get in the Public Sectoe IE a lot more annual leave shorter working hours in Winter, discounts on buying houses (Nurses, and most other sectors can claim for this and it is fair whack!) and also other various perks that are too long to mention.
    Originally posted by Gareth JJ
    shorter working hours in Winter??? discounts on buying houses??? I wish..... nurses and teachers may benefit from help with housing, but the rest of us don't, and nobody I work with benefits from shorter hours in the winter - get real!!! and please list the other various perks that are too long to mention - I'm intrigued.
    • XRAT
    • By XRAT 1st Dec 11, 10:20 PM
    • 211 Posts
    • 197 Thanks
    XRAT
    I tuned into a radio show after the day of strikes I only managed to hear two callers before changing stations.
    One was a London taxi driver who thought it was appaling that his taxes were paying public sector workers pensions. A taxi driver, in a cash rich environment, paying taxes! I would be surprised if he's paying more than 5% tax if he's honest...., whereas the public sector are unable to escape a penny. THEY'RE PAYING THEIR OWN PENSIONS!

    The radio host said, "What part of, 'There is no money left don't you understand?' " Well two bits actually..., the bit where we can't get out of a contract to build two aircraft carriers but we can get out of the contract to pay pensions; and the bit where we can still afford to give money to charities (in other countries, I thought charity begins at home)..., instead of meeting our obligation to your pension fund.

    The second caller worked in the City. His grievance was that the public sector don't produce anything..., perhaps not. But the NHS keep him alive to enjoy his riches, the police prevent others from stealing his riches etc. etc. etc.
    I can't believe the number of private sector workers that believe that the public sector don't pay anything for their pensions. I've yet to meet anyone in my neighbourhood who pays half of my public sector pension contributions!
    • stevemcol
    • By stevemcol 2nd Dec 11, 12:37 PM
    • 1,650 Posts
    • 781 Thanks
    stevemcol
    I don't disagree strongly with anyone's opinion on this, it's just a mess and in general not of our own making.

    My sympathy goes out to those of you in the public sector and I don't blame you for trying to protect your retirements. Most of you will have joined public service on the understanding you had a cast iron pension and now feel let down.

    Good luck but I feel there will have to be a compromise and it will probably be closer to the government's position than the unions'.
    Apparently I'm 10 years old on MSE. Happy birthday to me...etc
  • derboy
    Why should the public sector get a pension that is worth more than the contributions justify. The difference is paid for by the private sector.

    Race to the bottom! Its a fun term. You can have the best pension is the world, champagne and gold. Please dont ask for the private sector to contribute to it.

    I might buy a new car at the weekend. I'll pay 1000. Someone else can pay the rest. It was promised to me. I deserve it.
  • RealQuantum
    Why should the public sector get a pension that is worth more than the contributions justify. The difference is paid for by the private sector.

    Race to the bottom! Its a fun term. You can have the best pension is the world, champagne and gold. Please dont ask for the private sector to contribute to it.

    I might buy a new car at the weekend. I'll pay 1000. Someone else can pay the rest. It was promised to me. I deserve it.
    Originally posted by derboy
    Pehaps you should have watched 'Question Time' last night the government make massive contributions into private sector pensions. I can not remeber the exact fuigure but its billions not millions. Check your facts before you start a rant. One key thing that you are missing here the millions of publioc sector workers are tax payers too.
    • Lifes Grand Plan
    • By Lifes Grand Plan 2nd Dec 11, 3:04 PM
    • 1,045 Posts
    • 992 Thanks
    Lifes Grand Plan
    I might buy a new car at the weekend. I'll pay 1000. Someone else can pay the rest. It was promised to me. I deserve it.
    Originally posted by derboy
    I think this hilarious comment sums up the type of poster....
    A big believer in karma, you get what you give

    If you find my posts useful, "pay it forward" and help someone else out, that's how places like MSE can be so successful.
  • derboy
    For all those moaning that tax payers pay public sector and their pension I,d like to point out a couple of things ....public sector workers like everyone else apart from mega paid big bonus folk pay taxes, they also pay lots of their lower salaries into cover their pension, it is not a free perk like the common misconception out there.I worked in private sector when we still had non.contributory pensions, in public sector where I paid loads in and now in private sector where I made a huge pay jump when I moved so have knowledge of all sides.
    BUT who do you all think pays banks staff, shop staff, etc answer really the tax payer....we pay our money into the bank, we borrow from the bank they make profits and that funds their operating costs and pays staff wages and the bonuses of those still getting them.....banks don't operate without tax payers money and the profits they make.....if tax payers don't shop in places they close because in reality tax payers fund the shop and their staff wages it's basic economics...tax payers fund pretty much all of it.
    Yes in a shop you get goods, in a bank you're meant to get a safe place to keep your money....in public sector you get free education at school, free healthcare, free dentist, free social work care, bin service, roads and so on so that's what we pay for.
    Just ask yourself if the public servants in government are serving normal tax payers why then do many use private schools and the like the rest can't afford just like the same folk who brought the worlds finances into chaos because they can afford to and yes it's the rest of us normal tax payers who pay for it!
    Good luck to those losing a days pay on strike or those who loose out as a result of it but all fighting each other nicely deflects the fight from those who caused this mess in the first place so they win in the end..again!
    Originally posted by alimckay
    It's this post which is so frustrating.

    UK wealth is generated from trade, import and export of products and services. Tax recycling is not a method of generating growth. It does not make the economy work on its own.

    The public sector may pay tax but the contribution is irrelevant compared to the cost of salaries! So the fact that the Public sector pension pot does not support itself means the taxpayer (private) has to support it. That is the point which generates emotion. The people who dont have pensions (majority of private workers) are funding (through taxation) generous pensions to another group of society. That is in essence unfair.
    Last edited by derboy; 02-12-2011 at 5:18 PM.
    • Grade_A_Reject
    • By Grade_A_Reject 2nd Dec 11, 6:48 PM
    • 764 Posts
    • 555 Thanks
    Grade_A_Reject
    If you work in the public sector and aren't happy with your lot just resign and find a better job. Three million people eager to step into your shoes.
    "A nation of plenty so concerned with gain" - Isley Brothers - Harvest for the World
    • ipod killed the musicshop
    • By ipod killed the musicshop 2nd Dec 11, 7:27 PM
    • 2,309 Posts
    • 1,970 Thanks
    ipod killed the musicshop
    It's this post which is so frustrating.

    UK wealth is generated from trade, import and export of products and services. Tax recycling is not a method of generating growth. It does not make the economy work on its own.

    The public sector may pay tax but the contribution is irrelevant compared to the cost of salaries! So the fact that the Public sector pension pot does not support itself means the taxpayer (private) has to support it. That is the point which generates emotion. The people who dont have pensions (majority of private workers) are funding (through taxation) generous pensions to another group of society. That is in essence unfair.
    Originally posted by derboy
    What a stupidly inaccurate thing to say! There are public sector workers in manual jobs and there are private sector workers who fine people for forgetting to pay the congestion charge on time, go figure!
    Boris Johnson voted against Brexit in the Commons, all to become leader of the Conservative Party. Fall for it and you deserve everything you get.
  • dholtuk2
    Why are all these posts so focused on how the public sector pensions are funded solely by private sector tax payers? Do public sector workers not also pay tax and also a huge portion of their monthly income in order to fund said pension??
    • frub
    • By frub 3rd Dec 11, 2:14 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    frub
    I'm really concerned about the gulibility of the general public.
    The Tory's will always try to divide and conquer as they have so successfully done over the pensions 'debate'. The public sector pensions, by and large, are sustainable but the good old Tory's have decided they want to spend the money on other things (As admitted by Francis Maude on Newsnight) and so they've set up this fight, stood back and rubbed their hands at this, for them, spectator sport. There are so many outright lies being told about both sectors.
    I have small pensions from both sectors and as it happens the private pension is much better but I have to agree that saying that the private sector having poor or no pension is no reason to take big chunks out of the public pensions.
    The government are trying, and suceeding, to take us back to before the introduction of the welfare state - low wages, no pensions and working until you're too old to have any retirement, no NHS, total private schooling and university education only for the top earners.

    WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE - IF YOU CAN STILL AFFORD IT!
  • Dave Montford
    Super nero
    A few thoughts on the strike and pensions in general.
    1) These strikers just don't get it there is no money left we are squillions in debt, they have been offered a very good deal in comparison with the private sector, I know, I paid in vast sums to my private pension, only to see the returns diminished by at least 1/3 over the last 10 years thanks in large parts to Mr Brown.
    2) I started work at 15 most young people now dont start work until at least 18, and will have to work to 67 before they get a state pension, therefore they will work one year less than I and many of my generation have had to do.
    3) We have overpaid ourselves over the last 10 years, and now we are having to pay it back, yes lifes tough, but get used to it. Stop bleating you in the public sector we are all suffering, because of the last governments policies, a government most of you strikers supported I may add.
  • Kew2u
    I also posted this in a topic of a similar nature.
    To strike or not to strike....That is one heck of a question which brings to the fore many other questions.
    We're told to save for our retirement, great, providing we earn enough to do that! and that is really the crux of the matter. Not everyone gets the chance to earn a decent wage. Is the guy who unblocks the drains not worth a decent income and pension? Where would we be without him? My first weekly wage was 3-10shillings (50p). I was 43 years old before I hit the 100 a week mark. Yes, costs were lower but there was never money left over for holidays, nights out, a car a new suit a computer etc. Savings and bank accounts were not the norm for most workers. So saving towards a pension was out of the question.
    While I would support action for a better deal, I would be more supportive if 'action' first covered the basic needs of people who are destined to retire on the pittance of a State pension. Starting with the lowest paid and working up the income ladder has got to be a more acceptable proposition.
    The public sector workers are united through their single paymaster, but heaven help us all if the private sector ever manage to galvanise themselves into united industial action. We can talk about the disgraceful and greedy fat cats in many cases justifiably, but there are many more people on the bread line that are seldom mentioned.
    I don't consider that the strikers are greedy in their demands at all, we all wish for a decent affordable lifestyle, but I'd prefer to see the less well off in the pension stakes being brought up to a decent level first. The pot is only so big, 'Who should, at this moment in time dip into the pot?' We all have to share rising prices, schools, civil rights etc; Why not a fairer deal for those less well of and a fairer share of the pension pot?
    Last thought...while we all accept %'s as the norm...how about we all pay for our 'loaves of bread' as a % of our income? Nah, that would never do, if we did that we would all break even!
  • spend2save
    Surely the charity sector should be tied in with the public sector option as it's basically a synonym for the public sector
  • ferrari042
    Pension Changes happen to everyone
    I've worked in the private sector for 38 years and my pension benefits have changed at least 5 times (not for the better) my contributions were always around 6%. Luckily due to a TUPE transfer to another company my main pension (over 35 years) was frozen in 2003 and deferred until I'm 60, luckily this was before they dumped final salary rules. A lot has been made of "low paid" public sector workers and I agree there are many hard working people particularly working in schools who are on low hourly rates but there are also a lot in the private sector as well. Most pensions are based on your pay, number of years service and hours worked so if you spend 30 years working full time and your final years pay is 15000 then even the best final salary scheme is only going to give you a pension of around 5600 so lets stop exaggerating this point. Whilst there are many low paid public sector workers there are also many on high pay, a friend of mine who worked in a large corporate with me joined our local council after he was made redundant and was shocked at the number of managers who were on over 30k, equivalent roles in the company we left would be around 22k and they have lots of "non jobs" (Head of Diversity 40k, Inclusion coordinator 36k etc).
  • ferrari042
    Unfair retrospective changes
    Forgot to mention in my last post I do have some sympathy with the public sector workers as its unfair to change benefits retrospectively, problem is this kind of review has been needed for over 20 years.
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